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Received: by minnie.vk1xwt.ampr.org with NNTP id AA7569 ; Mon, 25 Jan 93 12:18:00 EST Xref: sserve comp.org.eff.talk:11864 comp.unix.bsd:10308 comp.unix.wizards:28318 comp.org.usenix:3176 Path: sserve!manuel.anu.edu.au!munnari.oz.au!constellation!mimbres.cs.unm.edu!ncar!csn!hansford!murrayc From: murrayc@hansford.com (Charles H. Murray) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,comp.unix.bsd,comp.unix.wizards,comp.org.usenix Subject: Re: ENOUGH! Re: BSDI/USL Lawsuit -- More Bad News for Human Beings... Message-ID: <sp1XrArBBh107h@hansford.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 21:22:36 -0700 References: <BZS.93Jan16205935@world.std.com> <1ja6bgINNh23@chnews.intel.com> <C0yK27.9Ly@csn.org> <1993Jan20.230616.25164@igor.tamri.com> Distribution: inet Organization: The Hansford Group - Contract Software Engineering and Consulting Lines: 118 In <1993Jan20.230616.25164@igor.tamri.com> jbass@igor.tamri.com (John Bass) writes: >After reading much of the topic it seems to be shaping up much >as the Stalman vs. Industry debate. My views on such are >neither short or to the point. You were right about that... I can't find one valid point. >First, the group at UCB, Joltz, BSDI, and others all have acted >out a plan to attempt to place the AT&T/USL UNIX product into the >public domain. A conspiracy based in false "Robin Hood" ethics. I'll bet you are a Republican. >I doubt the Studios, Screen Actors Guild, or the courts would allow >the Trekies to rewrite every line/scene of each movie/episode (while >preserving the plot and fabric of each story) in an attempt to place >the Startrek industry into the public domain so that freely copyable >and editable movies could by enjoyed by the self proclaimed public. >The fact is, that to do so is blatantly illegal ... no matter how >much a bunch of highschool/college drama school wantabe actors might >cry about freedom of expression while tring ... it's WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! I got news for you pal, TV is free. It's not a question of content, but of access. >From my view what UCB, Joltz, BSDI and others have done has neither >advanced the art nor been in the UNIX industries best interest. With >forethought and malace they incrementally attempted to place the UNIX >operating system product into the public domain by re-writting it >line by line while leaving the framework and the fabric of the system >unchanged ... same global design, major algorithms, data structures, >internal interfaces, etc ... to what end? Only to attempt to destroy >AT&T/USL UNIX as a commercial product. At best the debate has >cost more than a million wasted man-hours that could have been more >productively used to advance the art with a new design. Their actions >have been WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! To attempt to destroy AT&T/USL?!? Do you think they give a rats ass how AT&T/USL fairs? What they did was take on a huge task, for the benefit of thousands of people they will never know. The group that will use 386BSD is mutually exclusive with the group that will purchase AT&T flavors of Unix. >They should have followed the example of other university research >teams and done some REAL research to give us a guiding example of >what OS's should look like in the next century instead of perpetuating >the mistakes and frail framework of UNIX's 1960/70's design. Explain to me how something frail and filled with mistakes could have survived for three decades. Sure it's got problems, what doesn't, but Unix is effective. I see it being pushed forward into the next century. >The vast majority of programmers rely on the success of their >employers for continued paychecks to pay for the basics plus >toys we wish for a comfortable living. While most of us truely >enjoy our profession, I doubt most of us would continue if >salaries topped out at $9k/year or we didn't have the dream of >hitting the big one on some speculative development project/startup. I wouldn't give you $9 based on what I've read in this post. >The cry that Bell Labs release of UNIX killed OS research is not >without merrit ... but to belly around the bar and cry in our beer >over 386BSD is even more folly. >Joltz has contended that his goal was to make 386BSD an operating >system research tool/platform would have been most noble ... if it >was atleast a 1990's design instead of a warmed over 1960's design. >The truth is that if this was really his goal, there are dozens of >better OS frameworks than the tired old UNIX design. It is disgusting for someone to make light of two years of effort without demonstating an equal level of achievement (i.e. I don't think you're in the same league). Besides you idiot, it's spelled Jolitz. >There are many ways to build a POSIX compatable OS to advance the >art ... 386BSD is not in my wildest dreams anything other than the >bastard child of a tired old 1960's UNIX OS design. I see a lot of complaining on your part, pal, but VERY little action. You know the saying... Put up, or Shut up. >Bring on the MACH, SPRITE, PLAN9, and other truely inovative designs. >Let the commercial guys milk the MSDOS & UNIX markets and pay our >salaries as long as they can. In a few years MSDOS & UNIX are likely >to be as interesting as IBM 370 OS/MVT, or 360 DOS, or 1620 executive, >or DEC PDP11/RSTS or any of the other OS technolgies I sometime try >to remember from my past that USED TO BE the main stream MUST KNOW. >I LOVE UNIX and have been a wild supporter for 17 years ... but it >has it limits, and just as MS-DOS, those limits are preventing >us from moving forward to better technologies. >It's time we get out of the herd mentality and view the USL vs BSDI >lawsuit as it really is ... a botched attempt by BSDI & Joltz to >plagiarize UNIX. Let's not make folk heros of them over their petty >actions. Lets focus instead on the other teams that are bringing us >our future. Do you think that Bell Labs pack wrote Unix to generate revenue? They wrote it as a tool for themselves and others who might find it of value (sound familiar), and AT&T corporate slurped it up. AT&T is blasting the very process that got Unix started in the first place. Can you say HYPOCRITICAL?!? LONG LIVE RICHARD STALLMAN, LYNNE AND WILLIAM JOLITZ!!! >John Bass >Consultant >DMS Design Consultants can be such righteous assholes (takes one to know one) ... -- Charles H. Murray Software Engineering Consultant "On assignment at IBM in Breckenridge, Colorado USA Research Triangle Park murrayc@hansford.com North Carolina USA"