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From: callahan@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux,comp.unix.bsd
Subject: Re: Linux or 386BSD?
Message-ID: <1993Feb13.030204.11977@vax.oxford.ac.uk>
Date: 13 Feb 93 03:02:04 GMT
References: <1993Feb5.211047.16911@serval.net.wsu.edu> <1kv7e4INNc8h@smurf.sti.com> <1993Feb8.163755.7464@unlv.edu> <1l6evhINN178@smurf.sti.com>
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620
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In article <1l6evhINN178@smurf.sti.com>, dgreen@sti.com (Dan R. Greening) writes:
> maniac@unlv.edu (Eric J. Schwertfeger) wrote:
>>In article <1kv7e4INNc8h@smurf.sti.com> dgreen@sti.com (Dan R. Greening) writes:
>>>Actually, it is somewhat annoying to see uninformative "try both" replys.
>>>Doesn't anyone have an honest opinion? It takes days to boot both,
>>
>>Just out of curiosity, why is that? I got linux up in under an hour.
>
> Because I had to download the software onto disks myself. This was
> because Linux didn't support my network card in its default configuration.
> (Actually at the time I tried booting Linux, it didn't support my network
> card at all...seems to now, though.)
Fair enough. It would be nice if someone would contribute support for
installing Linux over the net. I wonder if SLS could be modified in
a small way to do this...
However, you said that it takes "days". I have installed SLS in about
four hours a couple of times, counting the time taken to download the
files from the net and then onto floppy (given a net-connected machine
with a floppy drive, and mtools). It would have been shorter but I was
(1) installing onto a *very* slow machine (386sx-16, slow hard disk)
(2) making lots of hand cuts to install into a relatively small partition.
I don't know how long it takes to install 386BSD, but if it takes "days"
to install both then I deduce that 386BSD must take longer to install.
(But then again everyone says how nice the 386BSD install setup is...)
[...]
> As parochial as Diamond is about its card, my Linux experience gives me
> some sympathy for those with politically incorrect VGA drivers. I started
> looking in PC magazines for a decent hardware system and Diamond Stealth
> cards dominate the high-end market. I could imagine others having the same
> problems I had with my NE2000 card. Politically correct or not, deliberate
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> non-support of Diamond cards will likely have the effect of pushing people
> toward a commercial Unix system--or not adopting Unix at all.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying, but I hope you're not
saying that you think the XFree developers' refusal to incorporate
Diamond patches is informed by "politically correct" (ie. stupid)
thinking.
The situation as I see it has three parts, which are important
to separate:
1) The XFree developers have spent a lot of time making a great
piece of software. They believe that Diamond's position is
sufficiently hostile that they are worried about legal liability
should they distribute patches.
2) Some people have said that Linux users shouldn't buy Diamond
products since Diamond's legal stance hinders the goal of free,
source-form distributions, which is an important part of what
Linux is about. (And 386BSD too, surely?)
3) Some people already have Diamond cards, perhaps bought before they
were aware of the problems. They don't get any support because of
the 'boycott'.
Now, I have no problem at all with 1). You surely aren't suggesting
that the XFree developers *should* have to take on (what they perceive
to be) a legal liability, are you? Who are we to ask them to do that?
I suppose you may disagree with 2). Personally, I think potential
Linux/XFree users should avoid companies and products which refuse
to make interface information freely available. It is good to vote
with your wallet in favor of open interfaces, imho, and anyway you
are much more likely to get support for your hardware from the
community if your vendor is helpful. So, I think the Linux community
*should* make a point of telling people to avoid Diamond for their
own sake and for the sake of the community.
Most likely you object to 3). I think it's wholly unreasonable to ask
people to expose themselves to Diamond's legal belligerence if they
are worried about it. But presumably there are some people who
aren't worried about being sued by Diamond (if we all were then
there would be agreement and no flame-fests, right?). Why doesn't
one of those people get the information from Diamond under non-
disclosure and make a distribution that satisfies Diamond's
requirements? No one is stopping this: in fact the setup.S patch
can be seen as a baby version of this idea. (I vaguely recall
someone saying he was going to do this, but I've seen nothing on
it.) This would help the people who are stranded with Diamond cards.
I note that there would still be awfully good reasons to avoid
Diamond products and to purchase open-interface products instead:
it's nicer to have things supported by the base distribution
(which isn't going to include Diamond as long as the main
developers are worried about Diamond's legal attitude) and you
get much better support from the net when lots of people have
access to the necessary technical information.
> The whole
> idea of shoving people toward Microsoft Windows curdles my blood. There is
> a herd of people all using the most mediocre operating system known to man.
> It appalls me, because it is so unnecessary. I once wrote a multitasking
> operating system for the 80186 with device drivers, all by my lonesome.
> It is ridiculous that Bill Gates is making billions off the uninspired
> MS-DOS and its ugly extension, MS Windows.
>
> That seems more critical: the anti-Diamond attitude is getting in the way
> of promoting a beautiful alternative to MS Windows.
>
> I guess that's my summary.
I guess my summary (whew!) is: is the problem really just
"anti-Diamond attitude" or is the problem that the people who are
doing work aren't willing to face the legal uncertainties, and no one
who is willing to face the legal uncertainties is willing to do the work?
> --
> ____
> \ /Dan Greening Software Transformation 1601 Saratoga-Sunnyvale Rd, #100
> \/dgreen@sti.com (408) 973-8081 x313 Cupertino, CA 95014
Michael
---
Michael Callahan
callahan@vax.ox.ac.uk
callahan@math.harvard.edu