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Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.questions Path: sserve!manuel.anu.edu.au!munnari.oz.au!news.Hawaii.Edu!ames!pacbell.com!att-out!cbnewsj!dwex From: dwex@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (david.e.wexelblat) Subject: Re: 45 graphic cards tested for MSWindows Organization: AT&T Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1993 01:15:23 GMT Message-ID: <1993Mar9.011523.1110@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> References: <rcpt.731580191@rwa.urc.tue.nl> <1993Mar8.150146.14342@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> <rcpt.731628677@rw8.urc.tue.nl> Lines: 147 In article <rcpt.731628677@rw8.urc.tue.nl> rcpt@urc.tue.nl writes: > >>Piet said: > (What Amancio said deleted: but read on!) > > David said: > >> I think a lot of people (like me) thinking to start with 386BSD are > >> confused which card to buy and which X-server to run. In the mean time > >> I have a little experience with 386BSD on our 486DX-33 with two > >> different ET4000 boards. Given the fact I am still not able to get an > >> ergonomic performance out of these cards, with this I mean 70 Hz at > >> 1024x768 with 256 colors, I would be very anxious to leave the official > >> XFree86-1.2 line and choose the XS3 server. You could help us by giving > >> an overview of the advantages and disadvantages of the XS3 server > >> compared to the XFree86-1.2 (and for example answer the question why > >> XS3 is not part of XFree86-1.2) and a list of cards on which this > >> server runs. > > >While there may be reasons to use XS3 instead of XFree86 (at least until > >XFree86 2.0 comes out), screen refresh rate is NOT one of them. Screen > >refresh rate is SOLELY a function of the capabilities of you monitor, > >given a modern video card (most ET4000's these days have 75-90MHz as > >their top clock). I give you the following examples from the Mode Database: > > > (a) VESA timing, 75MHz clock ==> 70.07Hz (56.5kHz horizontal) > > (b) Nanao 9070s, 75MHz clock ==> 73.37Hz (58.9kHz horizontal) > > (c) Nanao 9080i, 72Mhz clock ==> 68.72Hz (55.4kHz horizontal) > > (d) NEC 4DS, 72MHz clock ==> 69.02Hz (56.6kHz horizontal) > > (e) NEC 5FG, 72MHz clock ==> 69.88Hz (56.6kHz horizontal) > > (f) Sony CPD-1604S, 75Mhz clock ==> 70.75Hz (57.2kHz horizontal) > > >(that's just the few I saw with 70-75Mhz clocks. There are more with higher > >clocks, too, but those clock speeds aren't so common). All of these, with > >the possible exception of the VESA numbers, are from ET4000s. > > >The issue is usually the max horizontal sync frequency of your monitor, > >not your card (especially if you have VRAMs). > > Although the monitor's specs are very important the clock frequencies > of the card (S3 or ET4000) are also crucial. Our Morse 17" inch (heard > it does contain a Philips tube) has a maximum line frequency of 57 kHz > and should therefore be able to do 1024x768x256 in 70 Hz. The original > ET4000 board had a maximum clock of 65 MHz; the card I am now trying > has a clock of 72 MHz (according to the booklet accompanying the card) > but `X386 -probeonly' reports a 80 MHz clock. But till now I got no > image with this clock. I want to check what frequencies the card > actually generates with an oscilloscope to see which component fails the > card or the monitor. Right. But that still doesn't explain your initial contention that XFree86 can't do 1024x768x256 at 70Hz refresh. It certainly can, on lots of ET4000 cards and lots ot monitors. > > In the example Xconfig coming with XFree86-1.2 the VESA settings are the > defaults. That is perfect. Wat we need is plug-compatible VESA cards and > VESA compatible monitors. So people don't need to spend hours to get a > resolution of 987x789 in 63 Hz just because their card/monitor is not VESA > compatible. Everybody should at least be able to do 800x600x256 in 72 Hz > with a 14" monitor and 1024x768x256 in 70 Hz with a 17" monitor. But I can > imagine that some people want 1152x900x256 in 70 Hz. Perhaps next time the > Xconfig should contain a "1152x900" VESA line. According to my estimates the > monitor will need a line frequency of 67 kHz and a clock frequency of > 100 MHz (based on the data I found in David's modeDB.txt). What we next > need is a summary of cards that are XFree86 VESA compliant or a MSDOS > program to check this in the computer shop, before buying the computer. > The world would be a much better place if everyone had VESA-compliant cards and monitors. But they don't. And it doesn't HAVE to be VESA compliant to get the display you want (it just makes it easier). I think the reason that there isn't a VESA-blessed 1152x900 mode is that it isn't a 4:3 aspect ration, as all the others are. But I really can't say why; I just put in the database what people give me. I would be glad to add VESA-compliance information to the database. But I only can put into the database what people send me. > >> > >> If people provide me with the basic information I will make a summary > >> answering questions like: > >> - XFree86-1.2 or XS3? > >> - if XFree86-1.2 which card? > >> - if XS3 which card? > >> - VLB / ISA / EISA > >> - 386 / 486 > >> - how much memory? > > >For XFree86, I continue to recommend the Orchid ProDesigner IIs. From > >what I am told, VLB makes a HUGE difference (factor of 2+) with ET400's. > >ISA/EISA is not that big a difference. > > >However, if you can use it, XS3 is your best performance option right > >now. But be wary of DRAMs. As Amancio will attest, you will be trading > >off performance for refresh rate with DRAMs (the higher your dot-clock, > >the less time the CPU has to access the video memory). This is not the > >case with VRAMs (at least not to any significant extent. > > I would be very pleased knowing how next ET4000 cards X-perform in > 1024x768x256 at 70 Hz: > - Orchid ProDesigner IIs/ISA price: 269,- DM > - Orchid ProDesigner IIs/VLB price: 295,- DM > - Orchid ProDesigner IIs/EISA price: 390,- DM > - Sigma Legend II ET4000/ISA/VRAM price: 300,- DM Well, the PDIIs/ISA (at ~62Hz refresh, 65Mhz clock - my monitor can't handle a horizontal sync above 50k) doe 11.6k xStones on a 486/33 EISA machine. > > As far as I can see (from an overview in PC Direct 3/93 german magazine) > the Orchid ProDesigner IIs does not have a VRAM version, the only card in > that overview (300 cards) with an ET4000 and VRAM was the Sigma Legend II. The PDIIs does have VRAMs. The older PDII does not. This can be seen physically by looking up the chips in a databook. It can also be seen empirically by the fact that teh PDIIs produces ~30% higher xStone ratings than a PDII, both on 486/33 machines, running the same version of XFree86. > > And of course we all would like to see an overview of the S3 cards that > are XS3 VESA compliant. VESA X-compliant could be defined as: > 800x 600x256 in 72 Hz (clock: 47 MHz; line freq.: 48 kHz) > 1024x 768x256 in 70 Hz (clock: 75 MHz; line freq.: 57 kHz) > 1152x 900x256 in 70 Hz (clock: 100 MHz; line freq.: 67 kHz) > 1240x1024x256 in 60 Hz (clock: 110 MHz; line freq.: 65 kHz) > > Although the VESA standard does not define 1152x900 it is more interesting > than the 1280x1024 especially if you have a graphic card with only 1 MB of > DRAM or VRAM. For the 1280x1024 mode you will need a 21" monitor and more > VRAM's. Ditto. > > --Piet > > internet: rcpt@urc.tue.nl | Piet Tutelaers > bitnet: rcpt@heitue5.BITNET | Computer Center Room RC 1.90 > phone: +31 (0)40 474541 | Eindhoven University of Technology > fax: +31 (0)40 434438 | P.O. Box 513, 5600 MB Eindhoven, NL -- David Wexelblat <dwex@mtgzfs3.att.com> (908) 957-5871 AT&T Bell Laboratories, 200 Laurel Ave - 3F-428, Middletown, NJ 07748 "In and around the lake, mountains come out of the sky. They stand there." -- Yes, Roundabout