Return to BSD News archive
Xref: sserve comp.unix.bsd:1784 comp.unix.questions:23949 alt.folklore.computers:22272 alt.religion.computers:1467 Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd,comp.unix.questions,alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.computers Path: sserve!manuel!munnari.oz.au!uunet!utoday!wagner From: wagner@utoday.com (Mitch Wagner) Subject: Responses to survey on the death of BSD Organization: Open Systems Today Date: Mon, 29 Jun 92 14:14:24 GMT Message-ID: <1992Jun29.141424.20672@utoday.com> Followup-To: comp.unix.bsd Lines: 1049 What's your reaction to the news that the University of California at Berkeley will no longer be developing operating systems? Is this a loss for computer users, or is there now so much good commercial Unix available that Berkeley (BSD) Unix has outlived its usefulness? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This question is being posted to gather responses for an article in OPEN SYSTEMS TODAY. By sending an E-mail reply to the above question, you are granting permission for us to publish your response. A compilation of the responses to this post will be posted here. Please include in your response your name, your employer or university, your job title or class standing, and a telephone number where you can be reached during the daytime (overseas readers note: that's daytime in North America). Please be brief; try to limit your responses to about 200 words, not including headers and other administrivia. Unfortunately, we won't be able to consider responses published after Monday morning, June 29. (Just fyi, for anyone that cares about such matters, we are not planning to include the replies in our net.views column---where you may have seen posts like this one in the past---but rather in a separate article.... ) Thanks! -- Mitch Wagner, senior editor, Open Systems Today 2353 Massachusetts Ave. Suite 47, Cambridge, MA 02140 wagner@utoday.com CIS:70212,51 GEnie:MITCH.WAGNER For subscription information, please call 516/562-5882 From: "M.Iqbal" <ugrad.ee.ufl.edu!iqbal@uunet.UUCP> I think it will be great loss and the idea of free flow of information will be no longer valid. Can't these business people leave the college students alone? I vehemently believe that students understand problem well and find free solutions; therefore, University of Berkeley should keep developing Unix. iqbal From: Lee `nomaD` Damon <watson.ibm.com!nomad@uunet.UUCP> Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center Unfortunatly, with Sys V being prevelant, I fear that bad things can happen. I like to hope that BSDI and the free BSD projects will be able to counter some of the evil that Sun & USL have propigated. I like to think that BSD will live on for a long time, in one form or another. If everyone settles on Sys V or AIX, Un*x is doomed to boredom. Name: Lee Damon Employeer: I'd prefer to leave them out of it, so I'll say Castle P.A.U.S. Job Title: Sr. Systems Administrator day phone: 914-945-2167 -- work: nomad@watson.ibm.com - Lee "nomad" Damon - \ play: castle!nomad or nomad@castle.org \ Systems Admin, The Farm, IBM TJ Watson Research Center, Yorktown NY / \ "Today's Oxymoron: America the Free" / \ From: "R. Lee Hawkins" <annie.wellesley.edu!lhawkins@uunet.UUCP> Organization: Wellesley College In response to your net question concerning the demise of BSD, I have the following comments: While it is true that there is quite a bit of good commercial UNIX out there now, it is sad to see that the BSD group is going away. While commercial vendors may have much larger staffs and larger amounts of capital to throw at problems, those of us in the academic community are often freer to pursue more radical and innovative solutions to problems than our commercial counterparts. Additionally, the BSD folks had the "luxury" of looking at the big picture and being able to adapt features and concepts from many different OS's into BSD releases. Without the BSD folks in the lead, features that we all take for granted, such as the 'fast filesystem' and virtual memory might have taken a lot longer to come to System 5. I hope that Nemeth, et al, at Colorado, can pick up where Berkeley leaves off. ________________________________________________________________________________ R. Lee Hawkins lhawkins@lucy.wellesley.edu Department of Astronomy lhawkins@annie.wellesley.edu Whitin Observatory Wellesley College Wellesley, MA 02181 ________________________________________________________________________________ From: "Katy T. Kislitzin" <nas.nasa.gov!ktk@uunet.UUCP> I am very sorry to see CSRG dissolving. I just finished a 15 week intensive course on 4.4 Internals taught by Kirk McKusick and Mike Karels, with guest lectures by Keith Bostic and others, and there is a lot of very nice work which is going to come to a premature halt. The mature parts of the system, such as the vnode interface, which is an Nth generation recoding, has the elegance of modern theorems -- generality in the right places and not much extra fluff. The difference between that "object oriented" interface and the newer MACH vm system, which is also object oriented but written elsewhere, is a real testament to the value of the BSD effort. The MACH vm system which is part of 4.4 has a lot of excess complication for very little gain and is not yet elegant. There are plans for a vm/vnode merge, but I am not optimistic that such a major, substantial project can be accomplished in the time available. The log based file system that Keith has been developing is as important a development as the 4.4 fast filesystem, as disk speeds are not increasing in step with processors. =============================================================================== Katy Kislitzin, ktk@nas.nasa.gov, ...!{ames, uunet}!nas.nasa.gov!ktk || --- Systems Programmer, Networks Employed by Computer Sciences Corp for the | Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation Project, NASA/Ames \ | ---- The official poverty line of less than $4000/person/year, set in 1967, | | is based on the costs of a minimally adequate diet in 1963. ^^^^^ =============================================================================== From: Paul Rubin <soda.berkeley.edu!phr@uunet.UUCP> It's sad to see a historically important group break up, but the Free Software Foundation draws closer and closer to having a complete system to distribute... From: "Michael C. Dickson" <csi.compuserve.com!m.dickson@uunet.UUCP> Mitch, Regarding the breakup of CSRG, I think it's both a shame and understandable at the same time. I DON'T see it as the death of BSD Unix ( quite the contrary). The people at CSRG have pretty close to devlivered a license free source Unix that will likely form the basis for lots of creative work. There's already 386BSD, BSDI's BSD/386, and a Mach based BSD Unix server all derived from the same base source tree. There's real EXPLORATION going on that will likely continue to drive aspects of Unix in the future. To me an Open system provides the ability to not only select hardware and software in ways that make sense for a corporation, but also to permit intelectual exploration and tuning. One way for a company to develop a cost and price performance edge with competition is to establish a computing environment closely tuned to the problems they are trying to solve. The CSRG group and BSD Unix have made this possible at a cost (minimal to free) that most any company would find palatable. Looking forward to your article... Mike Dickson Compuserve, Incorporated m.dickson@csi.compuserve.com From: AT-Dreamer <seq.uncwil.edu!brant@uunet.UUCP> I believe there is some fair commercial unix on the market, but the cost is very high, which in turn could prevent schools from using unix based machines. BSD support is also good compared to "most" other flavors of unix. As to the fact I use BSD, I don't believe at has out lived it's usefulness, at least not for me. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Worlds may change, galaxies disintegrate/brant@seq. | Move your Butt Stimpy but a woman always remains a woman. / uncwil.edu | it's a Higher Mammal! - Kirk, "Conscience of the King," / "Chuck" | - Ren Hoek From: Brian de Alwis <cognos.com!dealwisb@uunet.UUCP> Organization: Cognos Incorporated, Ottawa CANADA It is important to remember that many commercial Unix products are either based on BSD, or pull many features from BSD. BSD inspired many changes to Unix from conception, and is really what started the whole openess and sharing of Unix software. I think it is a loss for computer users (meaning all end-users, system administrators, and operators) that the CSRG will be closing down, as it really places 'us,' the users, under the tyranny of the commercial vendors. Since BSD will no longer be 'officially' improved, unless some consortium is started now, each site can, must, and will make changes to their code to stay ahead, whether it be for bug-fixes, or adding features. There will no longer be an encompassing compatibility. Users will be forced to commercial Unix, if only to remain compatible with the outside world. It's sad, and I wish there was something else that could be done about it. -- +++BdA Brian de Alwis. Brain on loan to Cognos Inc, Ottawa, Ontario. dealwisb@cognos.com, or bsdealwis@napier.waterloo.edu "Nine out of ten men who tried camels said they preferred women" I do not necessarily represent those of Cognos, Inc. or UofWaterloo From: markie <hookie.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu!tinguely@uunet.UUCP> Organization: North Dakota State University BSD has been the main test bed of Unix development. As any test bed, not everything worked great (for example TCP trailers), but almost every commerical Unix has taken major features from BSD releases (TCP/IP, fast file system, quotas BSD version of groups, etc). BSD software also has been the source of education in OS kernel and system utilities. BSD software also has been the source to find working copies of utilities that vendors are too slow to fix or don't fix. And BSD software has given the ability to customize utilities. BSD software is the focal point of several minds from several locations. If BSD software does not live beyond the disolvement of organizational effort of the CSRG, then Unix will become object-only, proprietary, and stale. Mark Tinguely tinguely@plains.NoDak.edu Lecturer/System Administrator Computer Science North Dakota State University Fargo, North Dakota 58015 Organization: Ziebmef home away from home From: Chris Siebenmann <hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu!cks@uunet.UUCP> This is a loss for computer users who like to see genuine innovation and progress in Unix. The CSRG was practically the only non-commercial organization working on an obtainable Unix release that actually had a vision. Its death has doomed computer users to whatever overcrusted hackwork vendors want to push off on people today, and insured that we'll only see a series of proprietary 'enhancements' instead of more innovations. --- "However, since I'm one of a rare breed of individuals, characterized by a marked tendency to do unwise things (like trying to make a living developing Amiga software) [...]" - Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab cks@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu ...!{utgpu,utzoo,watmath}!utgpu!cks From: Chris Siebenmann <hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu!cks@uunet.UUCP> Chris Siebenmann Unix Herder (== sysadmin/system programmer/etc) University of Toronto Toronto, Ontario, Canada From: Sean Goggin <watserv1.uwaterloo.ca!mks!u36!sean@uunet.UUCP> Organization: U36 Research The following personal statements are in the public domain and you may do anything you like with them. Is this a loss for computer users... Contrast SysV's slow progress with BSD's . Commercial vendors are concerned with customers practical needs which rarely involve inovative kernel work. Without CSRG's push, experimental progress in the Unix OS will slow or vanish. Unix has lost it's experimental youth. Sean Goggin Mortice Kern Systems Inc. Technical Support sean@mks.com -- Sean.Goggin....sean@u36.kwnet.on.ca..............................U36.Research... From: Brian de Alwis <cognos.com!dealwisb@uunet.UUCP> My name is Brian de Alwis, I'm currently employed by Cognos Inc. in Ottawa, Ontario on my Co-op term. I'm entering my 2nd year in the University of Waterloo's Math program (majoring in Computer Science). Please note that my views are my own. (inserted for safety's sake :-) From: Mike McDonnell <tec.army.mil!mike@uunet.UUCP> This is a great loss for all computer users. A free, source-code Unix is needed to keep prices down and quality of software up. As the X Window System has showed us, there is no substitute for free source code when it comes to desiring universal availability and global support. BSD has been crippled by a last-minute attempt of some of its developers to gain commercial advantage at the expense of all of us having free software to develop. Things may not be too bad, however. It will not take very much work to provide a truly free Unix based on code developed at Berkeley, as Bill Jolitz has showed us with his port to the 386 of those parts of BSD that are free. So even though BSD may die just before its fruition as free software, those of us who admire the software may have enough gumption to put together some free ports of BSD. I hope so. I can't work well without source code and even the government can't afford Unix source code licenses from AT&T. The ball is now in the court of those of us who admire this software and want it to be free. Of course, we can all wait for the Free Software Foundation to present its operating system to us, but I don't know when that may happen. For developers, commercial binary code will never replace free source code, and users get the advantage of the work done on this free code. The last thing commercial sellers of operating systems want to see is a free Unix; but it is the main thing that many of us want. From: Mike Matthews <oberon.umd.edu!matthews@uunet.UUCP> Organization: /etc/organization Well, keep in mind this is coming from someone who hasn't had nearly as much Unix exposure as he'd like, but... I'm not sure it will have much of an effect at all. I mean, every vendor is shipping their own version of Unix anyway, I don't know of any pure BSD Unices out there now. I own a NeXT which is a BSD 4.3ism (Mach really), I've worked on DECs running Ultrix which is a BSD 4.3ism, and I've worked on SunOS machines which, well, have some of both universes (as you know). It's a loss that there are that many fewer talented people working on improving systems, but the loss probably won't be felt by too many people. Name: Mike Matthews Employer: Trident Data Systems (but I speak for myself here) Job title: Systems Administrator, if you need a title (don't really have one) From: Steve McDowell <exloghou.exlog.com!mcdowell@uunet.UUCP> Organization: Exploration Logging, Inc. The death of BSD? I think the concepts and implementation details that the CSRG pioneered in BSD 4.3 will be with the Unix community for a long time to come and, for the most part, this is a good thing. I also think that in the last 5 years or so, the CSRG hasn't really done anything to speak of. Somewhere along the way the pioneering stopped. We have to look at other schools and other systems for advanced systems research. AT&T is trying to do it again with Plan9 at unnamed schools. CMU is trying to do it with Mach. I think the bigger question is, can the Unix phenomenon be repeated? I'm not sure I want to speculate on that one..... Steven McDowell Exlog, Inc. -- Steve McDowell . . . . o o o o o Opinions are Exlog, Inc. _____ o mine, not my mcdowell@exlog.com _____==== ]OO|_n_n__][. employers.. [_________]_|__|________)< ooo ooo 'oo OOOOO oo\_ From: Mark Lottor <nw.com!mkl@uunet.UUCP> BSD Unix has been dead for years. I haven't seen a 4.3BSD system running in a long time. Vendors that sell 4.3BSD-based systems still haven't fixed half the bugs it came with. The release of 4.4BSD will have almost no impact on current Unix users, and most vendors will ignore it. Unix vendors will continue to release trash, whether from BSD or developed by themselves. They don't care about operating systems anymore, just fast hardware, fancy windows and bloated applications. Mark Lottor Principal Hacker Network Wizards PO Box 343 Menlo Park, CA 94026 From: Larry McVoy <slovax.eng.sun.com!lm@uunet.UUCP> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. Mt. View, Ca. It is a loss to the community as a whole. The CSRG at UCB has been instrumental in getting great technology to the masses. They brought us a high performance file system, they brought us TCP/IP and continued to show us all that networking can run at "wire speed". The AT&T free release will probably live on for some time, maybe outlasting supported commercial offerings. The greatest shame is the loss of a research group that was focussed on writing the smallest, cleanest OS possible. Contrast this with the various OSF vs USL vs Windows/NT nonsense and you start to see why that is such a great loss. There is value in having an organization who's sole charter is to "do the right thing". Who will step into that role? From: Brian Berliner <central.sun.com!Brian.Berliner@uunet.UUCP> The folks at Berkeley's CSRG are largely responsible for many of the nice features of today's UNIX systems. Losing this group will hurt UNIX and, perhaps, those small start-ups that needed a good UNIX to port to their whiz-bang box. However, thanks to CSRG's work to produce "free" versions of much of the BSD system, companies like Berkeley Software Design, Inc (BSDI) is taking the place of CSRG and offering extremely cheap ($1000 including source) and high quality BSD-based solutions. It's my guess that BSDI will be successful at filling CSRG's capable shoes, providing the UNIX for the rest of us. Brian Berliner SunSoft, Inc. Member of Technical Staff From: Noah Friedman <gnu.ai.mit.edu!friedman@uunet.UUCP> I, for one, am sorry to hear that they are quitting. They deserve a hand for all the work they've done over the years. I like the "feel" of BSD more than any other unix or unix-like operating system that has been released to date. I think macrokernels are reaching the limit of their usefulness and since other organizations exist which are writing free software, I think the main downside to CSRG breaking up at this point is that there will be no official maintainer (i.e. no "clearinghouse" for bug fixes and patches) for the free system, so over time the net3 release may acculate a lot of random hacks that will be hard to track of. There won't be any clear definition of what "official BSD 4.4" is, and programs ported to such a system may become gradually more crufty to conditionally support random change other people may have made. Even if someone else takes over maintenance of the entire system, I don't know if they'll do as good a job as CSRG has done, and keep the same design goals in mind. On the other hand, it may be that few changes and little further development will occur, and the free versions of BSD might just quietly die over time because of the lack of support (note that proprietary derivations of BSD may appear, but these are of little use to people wanting a system free of licensing, such as myself). Noah Friedman Free Software Foundation (GNU Project) System Administrator From: cl.cam.ac.uk!John.Beaven@uunet.UUCP Since Berkeley has released its sources, I think announcements of the death of BSD are a bit premature. It's likely to become a very popular free OS (BSD386 for 386-based closnes is out, still in alpha release but quickly improving) From: "Peter L. Wargo" <sun.soe.clarkson.edu!wargopl@uunet.UUCP> Mitch- I have mixed feelings about the announcement. Having been weaned on BSD (Under SunOS), I tend to prefer it over straight System V. On the other hand, the general industry trend has moved away from the differing camps with the release of SVR4. Although I lament the loss of some of the familiar "Berzerk" stuff in Solaris 2.0, I will eventually move to it, mostly to add my small support for an emerging standard. BSD was a good thing in its time, promoting a better and more flexible UNIX environment. Like all things, however, UNIX must grow up and become a consistant OS, which will never happen as long as there are two camps of thought. (I remember the first time I used SCO UNIX - I spent darn near half an hour trying to find the "lpq" command...) I guess I don't see it as the *death* of BSD, since the spirit lives on in SVR4. Hopefully, once we have a standard, the market will come alive as people clone *one* OS, instead of its many varients. I'm looking forward to the SVR4 version of LINUX someday. -Pete Wargo Documentation/System Admin. Enable Software, Inc. 313 Ushers Road Ballston Lake, NY 12019 ps - Met Linus hisself last night. I feel old. -Pete -- ---------- Peter L. Wargo | wargopl@sun.soe.clarkson.edu | "In other words... Documentation | | R.T.F.M..." Enable Software, Inc. | GEnie mail: PSYCLOPS | From: Vijay Gurbani <fnsg01.fnal.gov!vijay@uunet.UUCP> It's a shame that BSD Unix is closing down, and a definite loss to the Unix community. It would be understandable if funding for BSD was cut due to performance reasons, but considering how instrumentive BSD has been in the Unix world (with networking/sockets, signals, Berkeley Fast File system, etc) it's a downright shame that BSD is gone. There might be good commercial Unix available now, but the presence of BSD prodded the commercial Unix vendors to constantly have their versions measure up to BSD standards. And above all, BSD Unix was free (at least to the Universities). People like me who came out of colleges weaned on BSD will miss it. It's a closing of an era. Kind of reminds me of Johnny Carson leaving all over again :-) - vijay -- (____) Chicago Bulls 33 54 Vijay K. Gurbani '(o o)` 1990-91 NBA World Champions 24 Fermi National Accelerator Lab. \ / 1991-92 NBA World Champions 05 23 vijay@{cdsun,fnsg01}.fnal.gov == OO =====#include <all_neccessary_evils>====All opinions are mine, of course== From: "Perry E. Metzger" <shearson.com!pmetzger@uunet.UUCP> The end of CSRG's efforts is a major loss for the Unix community. Although most of the major past innovations from Berkeley have long been absorbed by the bulk of the community, there is still a great need for a source code available research platforms. Standardized systems, almost by definition, do not contain innovations but are instead built upon compromises. The survival of Unix depends on the incorporation of new ideas -- if Unix ceases to evolve it will die. Much of Unix's success is attributable to the way that the operating system has flexibly incorporated new features from new developments in computer science, such as networking, windowing, and improved file systems, that were not in existance when Unix was first created. The growing success of NeXT with a nonstandard operating system running nonstandard software demonstrates that there is a continuing need for innovation that slavish standardization stifles. Many of us forget that Unix is twenty years old and has achieved its vitality through a capacity for experimentation and extension, often by the user community. The end of CSRG represents the end of an era in which this sort of innovative experimentation is possible. Perry Metzger Systems Administrator Lehman Brothers From: Aaron Sherman <fmrco.com!asherman@uunet.UUCP> My info: Aaron Sherman Systems Engineer I-Kinetics Inc. asherman@fmrco.com Secondaries: asherman@i-kinetics.com asherman@gnu.ai.mit.edu asherman@dino.cpe.ulowell.edu I am a systems administrator, as well as a systems-level and GUI programmer. I'm not sure that the correct question has been asked. After all, BSD may be going away, but that hardly means that the only alternative is commercial UN*X. The "free" or "non-commercial" UN*X's that I have seen recently are: Mach - Not really UN*X, but has a very good emulator. Used as the heart of OSF/1, NeXT's and a few others. Linux - Available for 80x86 machines (I think you have to have at least a 386...) Free BSD- There is a port to the 80x86 In the works: GNU - GNU's Not Unix. A BSD-like system built on the Mach micro-kernel and supporting many UN*X-related standards from IEEE and ANSI. As you can see, commercial software is NOT all that's left. All things considered, it's too bad that BSD is going away as an on-going project, but I feel confident that quality "non-commercial" software will continue. -AJS From: James Risner <ms.uky.edu!risner@uunet.UUCP> BSD Unix development will move to the masses. Individuals will take over the tasks of making BSD Unix stable on the various architectures supported, but unless some other organized group planning and developing operating systems (Mach; Hurd) takes over, new advances in operating systems may not be introduced and incorporated into BSD. Most of the unique features of BSD are no longer unique. Most every unix like operating systems developed today uses concepts that originated in BSD. Also many colleges may begin (if they do not already) teaching classes on the concepts of operating system designing using freely distributed versions of unix clones. Maybe some of these students will contribute to the future of BSD Unix and other advance operating systems. James Risner Student (Senior) University of Kentucky University Archive Manager for 386bsd From: dircon.co.uk!uad1077@uunet.UUCP Ian Kemmish, software designer, 5D Solutions Ltd., London (used to write window managers fo workstations running BSD; now develop PostScript clones). Mixed feelings: as far as I can see, BSD is still the nicest UNIX environment around (well, at least I can *find* things:->). On the other hand, given that the world and his dog use windowing systems these days, a different approach than UNIX might be preferable anyway. I would prefer it if they'd announced they were going to bring Plan 9 up to the same commercial state as BSD brought UNIX to. From: Adam Justin Thornton <rice.edu!adam@uunet.UUCP> Organization: Milo's Meadow It would be a huge loss except that such packages as the GNU Hurd, and (on a much smaller scale) Linux and 386BSD promise to continue to provide free Unices for The Rest Of Us. BSD-flavored Unix is tastier than SysV, but as long as some good free Unix is around, not a big problem. BSD hasn't outlived its usefulness, but UCB may have in relation to it. -- "Adam Thornton plays the homosexual Horatio without succumbing to _too_ many cliched stereotypes. His Horatio, Hamlet's bosom companion...has a penchant for cream dresses and thigh-high black leather boots." | adam@owlnet.rice.edu Rice and I don't share opinions, thankfully. | Retry Student A | 64,928 | ;-) (queueing-rmail) id 033137.16254; Thu, 25 Jun 1992 03:31:37 EDT From: "Eric S. Raymond" <cbmvax!snark.thyrsus.com!eric@uunet.UUCP> Between Sun, BSDI, Mach, and Bill Jolitz I think we can be pretty sure the BSD tradition isn't going to die. For that matter, so much of BSD has been absorbed into SVr4 that one can reasonably claim we're all BSD users now. It's a good time for UC Berkeley to bow out gracefully, leaving its legend intact, rather than bucking the market trend to SVr4 and its successors. (If you quote this, your readers might be interested to know that I edited _The_New_Hacker's_Dictionary_, which OST should have reviewed already. Want me to nudge MIT Press about sending you a copy?) -- Eric S. Raymond = eric@snark.thyrsus.com (mad mastermind of TMN-Netnews) From: Peter da Silva <ficc.ferranti.com!peter@uunet.UUCP> I consider this a major loss to the computing world. BSD is not that great a production system, but as a research platform it's been the origin of so much basic software that's trickled down to the commercial world. It's a big hole that's going to be hard to fill. -- Peter da Silva `-_-' $ EDIT/TECO LOVE 'U` %TECO-W-OLDJOKE Not war? Have you hugged your wolf today? Ferranti Intl. Ctls. Corp. Sugar Land, TX 77487-5012 From: Michel Dagenais <vlsi.polymtl.ca!dagenais@uunet.UUCP> Right now BSD has the potential of providing a "free" operating system with source code included. It also has the virtue of being technically driven as opposed to "committee" driven. Otherwise, there are plenty of almost POSIX compliant OS on the market. On the longer term i have more hope in GNU (MACH + Hurd). It has a more advanced technical foundation and the GNU people have a better record at providing completely free source code than BSD does. From: Na Choon Piaw <pure.com!piaw@uunet.UUCP> I'm sad that BSD is dying. Not for any particular technical reasons, just simply because none of the other UNIces have quite the same features, and a lot of my programs wind up breaking on them... It was also a lot easier to manage BSD.... (I'm afraid SUN's Solaris 2.0 is a step backwards...) From: Ted Lemon <lupine!mellon@uunet.UUCP> BSD hasn't gone away - it's gone public. Free 4.4 BSD isn't quite there, but it's close enough that it *will* happen. As a user, I am looking forward to the day when I will be able to run BSD instead of a commercial implementation. _MelloN_ From: Adam Justin Thornton <rice.edu!adam@uunet.UUCP> Undergrad (Junior, Ancient Mediterranean Civilization major (*)), whose current job is Big Iron Wrangler (systems programming on our ES/9000). Rice is in Houston. Yee-haw. *Nope, there is absolutely no connection between my major and all the technogeek stuff I like doing. At least not that I've yet found. -- "Adam Thornton plays the homosexual Horatio without succumbing to _too_ many cliched stereotypes. His Horatio, Hamlet's bosom companion...has a penchant for cream dresses and thigh-high black leather boots." | adam@owlnet.rice.edu Rice and I don't share opinions, thankfully. | Retry Student A | 64,928 | ;-) From: Rick Emerson <ssg.com!bsd4me@uunet.UUCP> Organization: System Support Group In this cynical era, I must begin by saying, "I'm not surprised." Altruism is not a paying job, by definition. The heady days of free anything have passed and don't seem to be on the horizon again. Having contributed a few small projects to the computer world (not BSD software, BTW) with the conscious decision that the journey was the reward (gosh, wouldn't that work well at Apple <g>), I'm sorry to see others unable to help keep the flame of free-ware alive. At the same time, my work was supported by other, paying, projects. My projects were only briefly demanding of my entire work effort. To spend years on nearly non-paying projects is beyond my ability. As one willing to accept free software, I'm saddened, if for selfish reasons. I'd rather pay $200 for a Unix than $2,000. On a practical level, there will still people people willing to invest time in keeping the project going. But the aphorism about too many cooks is based on experience and this is a prime invitation for too many cooks. The result is something which could be worth its cost - nothing. Commercial products are certainly not good things by virtue of being commercial products. Support and updating problems with commercial Unix systems have filled the newsgroups. What's needed is an inexpensive Unix supported by moral people. What we will see is an honest effort with varying degrees of reliability for a free system or a major payout for something that may not be much better. Richard B. Emerson President, System Support Group Lansdale, PA (c) Copyright 1992, Richard B. Emerson - All rights reserved world wide permission for publication in part or whole granted to Open Systems Today From: Nathan Banks <neptune.iex.com!banks@uunet.UUCP> Yes, I read the article and I am little dissappointed with this announcement. I only hope that DARPA/"powers that be" will consider providing *some* funding for "consultative" opportunities such that Berkeley might continue to have some inputs/recommendations on the evolution of *nix in whatever name, shape or form it takes. Hats off to the guys and gals of Berkeley - your contributions to the community are greatly appreciated! Thanks Mitch for the opportunity and for presenting an excellent publication. Nathan Banks Member of Technical Staff -- /| |\ Nathan Banks / | | \ IEX Corporation \ | | / 1400 Preston Road, Suite 350 \| |/ Plano, Texas 75093 Email: {uunet,convex,att}!iex!banks for From: Ti Kan <altos.altos.com!bazooka!ti@uunet.UUCP> Organization: AMB Research Labs, Sunnyvale, CA. Berkeley has done the UNIX community great service in the past by introducing useful technologies absent in the AT&T versions. As a result, BSD has been the favored platform for scientific/engineering/ academic environments. Much of that technology, however, has been incorporated into UNIX SVR4 today. Moreover, many new technologies are being added to SVR4 that will not be available in vanilla BSD. This makes BSD a less attractive alternative than it once was. Also, there needs to be less variants of UNIX in order for UNIX to gain more market share. As much as I hate to see BSD go, the demise of BSD and an unification toward SVR4 may prove to benefit the UNIX business as a whole. But please understand that I say this without any intention to slight the contributions that Berkeley has made to the UNIX circles. This is my personal opinion only, and does not necessarily represent those of Stratus or other Stratus employees. Ti Kan Stratus Computer, Inc. Senior UNIX Software Engineer -Ti -- /// Ti Kan vorsprung durch technik /// Internet: ti@bazooka.altos.com ///// UUCP: ...!{uunet,sun,sco,apple,mips}!altos!bazooka!ti /// AMB Research Laboratories, Sunnyvale, CA. From: AT-Dreamer <seq.uncwil.edu!brant@uunet.UUCP> Chuck Brant (laptop man) "AT Dreaming" brant@seq.uncwil.edu Chuck Brant, UNC-Wilmington, Lead ACS Consultant, Senior, Comp sci major. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |The mountains are calling me, and I must go. | brant@seq.uncwil.edu | | -John Muir | Chuck Brant | |----------------------------------------------+-------------------------------| | A bug is just an undocumented feature ! | Joy, Joy, Joy -R&S | +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: Mike Trimberger <ics.uci.edu!fmt%mbf.uucp@uunet.UUCP> I feel a little sad that UCB will give up the OS business. I started my UNIX career by cutting my teeth on BSD releases. In a way, the improvment of the USL UNIX has contributed to the demise of CSRG. However, this does not mean that there isn't a big need for the BSD 'concept'. The success of the 'free BSD' source that Bill Jolitz is developing shows this. But this is what the BSD concept always was - a Unix system for myself. The complete source for a large OS is an excellent teaching tool. And it is a great hacking tool too - but what is hacking but self-teaching. BSD gave just about everyone a chance to touch an OS to try to make it better and to try to make a mark on the world. And that so many did is a tribute to the success of BSD. I predict that BSD will not actually die with the demise of CSRG at UCB. It will actually come back somewhere else, maybe called something different. But the need and the desire is there so it will live on. From: Claus Gittinger <langesw!clam!claus@uunet.UUCP> Having worked on many different Unixes, BSD systems have always been the most usable, stable and innovative. I dont like the idea of BSD going out of OS-business, since many new ideas originated at Berkeley - the stuff coming from AT&T has always been less usable and much much buggier. Also many of the BSD ideas where taken over by AT&T and others - we'd work with 5.2-like systems if there wasn't BSD ! Things like virtual memory, fast-file-system, long filenames, networking, vi :-) etc. all came from BSD. If money is a problem, UCB should be sponsored by the major computing companies to stay in business - just imagin the horror of a SUN/NEXT/VAX etc. running 5.x :-) Name: Claus Gittinger Empl. Indep. Consultant Major work area: Unix internals, porting, drivers, graphics, smalltalk From: Heiko Blume <uropax.contrib.de!src@uunet.UUCP> As the co-owner of a company that exists mainly because there is so much software available in source form, i'm worried. there is much effort being invested in creating whole systems, like in the GNU project, MIT's athena, Linux and, in this case, 4.4BSD. on the other hand there are throwbacks and dangers like software patents, interface copyrights and discontinuation of projects due to the lack of the necessary money. in the long run i consider software patents and weird copyrights the most dangerous, while i consider those projects to be the main weapon against those dangers. [i also tried to convince RMS that free software can be most valuable for the goals of the LPF] but until now all these projects haven't reached the masses. what needs to be achieved is making a free operating system with any imaginable kind of applications that *normal* people need in a easily installable distribution. once millions of users depend on this, it would be impossible for the software patenters and interface copyrighters to take them their daily tools away. therefore it is crucial that these projects do go on. we will support them in any way we can. with hopes, Heiko Blume, President Contributed Software src@contrib.de Graefestr. 76 1000 Berlin 61 -- email: src@scuzzy.in-berlin.de Contributed Software, Graefestr 76, D-1000 Berlin 61 source archive: nuucp/nuucp for uucp, 'archiv' for interaction, get /src/README From: Jeffrey Kegler <algor2!jeffrey@uunet.UUCP> Organization: Algorists, Inc. The center of UNIX development will now move to the GNU project, and to LINUX and the Jolitzs'. Commerical UNIX can be quite good, but its achievements cannot be built on by others, the way BSD's were. Many a nifty hack has been added to a commercial UNIX. But the code remained proprietary, and so the hack remained unavailable to the wider UNIX community. Even those improvements which are features evident without the code can be tried out only by those buying their UNIX from that vendor, which usually prevents these features from getting enough of an audience to be appreciated properly. BSD is dead. Long live 386BSD! Long live GNU! A second prediction: With the breakup of BSD, volunteer efforts will become crucial to the development of UNIX. This means cheap hardware will become the preferred medium of expression, and this of course means 80x86 ISA or EISA bus based hardware -- DOS boxes to put it crudely. There will continue to be a BSD UNIX, in 386BSD. And its competition will be LINUX and GNU's forthcoming HURD. The winner in this competition will be the industry, and the user. Jeffrey Kegler, Independent UNIX Consultant, Algorists, Inc. jeffrey@algor2.ALGORISTS.COM or uunet!algor2!jeffrey 137 E Fremont AVE #122, Sunnyvale CA 94087 "The problem with hi-tech is that the marketers who invented the term think they know what it means." From: Alexander Weidt <cs.tu-berlin.de!alcaman@uunet.UUCP> Hello, in a previous message I wrote: I realise that I forgot to include that my opinions in no way reflect those of Daimler-Benz or the Technical University of Berlin. I would be grateful if you could acknowledge the receipt of this mail. Happy hacking, Alex. -- Use the Force, read the source. From: Alexander Weidt <cs.tu-berlin.de!alcaman@uunet.UUCP> Hiho.. in comp.unix.questions you wrote: My reaction is one of grief and sorrow. BSD UNIX (*) has consistenly been years ahead of AT&T's developments. However there are signs that public funding could put development of new releases of BSD back on the rails. I would be much obliged if could you forward me a copy of the article when it is completed. (*) - UNIX is a bell of AT&T trademark laboratories. Happy hacking, Alex. -- Use the Force, read the source. From: Greg Black <bullit.void.oz.au!gjb@uunet.UUCP> This is a sad loss to the Unix and general computer community, even if it was inevitable in the present climate. BSD has in no way outlived its usefulness and will continue to evolve and be used in ever wider circles. The recent free 386BSD and the commercial (but low-cost) release from BSDI (BSD/386) both run on commodity hardware and (in the case of BSDI) provide or (in the case of 386BSD) will provide high quality operating systems that are not controlled entirely by vendors who only fix what suits them. It is my considered view, having failed on many occasions to get (often very old) bugs fixed by vendors, that there are no good commercial Unix versions currently available. While that is even partly true, BSD will have an important place. And while there is a world-wide community with the source and the energy to develop it, it will live on. Name: Greg Black Employer: Greg Black & Associates - Unix Software Consultants Job Title: Director -- Greg Black, 681 Park Street, Brunswick, Vic 3056, Australia gjb@bullit.void.oz.au id <14204-0@swan.cl.cam.ac.uk>; Fri, 26 Jun 1992 14:58:50 +0100 From: Allon Herman <batata.huji.ac.il!allon@uunet.UUCP> Organization: The Fritz Haber Research Center, HUJI Well, honestly I'm rather sad about the departure of BSD to the eternal east. I think that BSD has done great deal of good for the unix community by both the addition of features that where revolutionary at the time (networking, fast file system, etc.). Anyway on the other hand, the development of BSD turned what used to be a small but yet a powerfull system into a gigantic system... and obviously further evolution of the system has to take this into consideration. I am also aware that supporting system on an order of magnitude such as BSD's requires employees that their job is dedicated for this purpose. So, to summerize my opinion in brief: As many other people have already said on this list, some sort of Consortium should be created (of volunteers *NOT* of people with comertial interests) and this consortium should set the goals for future development of the system and the major work should be done inside research institues that are willing to support this effort by both means of man power and means of equipment. The rest of the support should be done by the community by means of users contributing ideas and fixes to the consortium and the consortium merging fixes and promoting these ideas in further releases. Furthermore BSD will live iff it can be used on a wide variety of platforms and on the other hand it will keep promoting new ideas, otherwise it will eventually become 'just another flavor of unix' and thus lose its right to live. Allon. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Allon Herman System Manager, The Fritz Haber Research Center for Molecular Dynamics. The Hebrew University of Jerusalem Israel, 91904 Disclaimer: Any opinion stated above is my own and has nothing to do with my organization's opinions or my boss's opinons