Return to BSD News archive
Xref: sserve comp.os.386bsd.questions:5097 comp.os.386bsd.misc:1007 Path: sserve!newshost.anu.edu.au!munnari.oz.au!ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!lugb!latcs1!ipc5.lat.oz.au!wongm Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.questions,comp.os.386bsd.misc Subject: ISA or EISA ? [summary] Message-ID: <CDF87z.5A7@latcs1.lat.oz.au> From: wongm@ipc5.lat.oz.au (M.C. Wong) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 00:33:34 GMT Sender: news@latcs1.lat.oz.au (news) Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia Nntp-Posting-Host: ipc5.lat.oz.au Lines: 356 From wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au Thu Sep 16 10:30:25 1993 Received: from ipc5.lat.OZ.AU by latcs1.lat.oz.au (5.65+/1.34) id AA06629; Thu, 16 Sep 93 10:30:24 +1000 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 10:30:29 +1000 From: wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au Message-Id: <9309160030.AA03896@ipc5.lat.oz.au> To: wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au Status: RO In article <CD8wJM.7n8@latcs1.lat.oz.au> wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au (M.C. Wong) writes: >Hi, > > However, having chatted to my vendor (of my existing ISA machine), I >was told that EISA + VLB slots board does not exist, and EISA is going to >face extinction soon! I was shocked by that sort of statement, and would >like to confirm with people who use EISA machine! To my impression, it >seems as if EISA is more likely to be the trend over ISA, who is right, >me or my vendor ? Is there such a config of EISA + VLB slots ? yes there are many. Mylex make one (but they are expensive), my dealer here in Perth has one for $A600 + CPU (it has a ZIF socket for the cpu). EISA is not going to face extinction soon because of VESA's 2 slot (sometimes 1) board limit. > > Secondly, my vendor claimed that for EISA and ISA, the performance of >Ethernet card is unlikely to make an observable difference, since the >peak transfer rate is 10Mbits/sec! And accordingly, he suggested me to stick >with my ISA + VLB slots board instead of investing in an EISA + VLB slots >board! Also, he claimed that HDD transfer rate depends mainly on the controller >instead of the type of bus ! Finally, he said the different components prices >for EISA is going to be more expensive than an ISA one, and does not worth >the extra dollars! you should get a vendor who knows what he is talking about.. working on a bustek742 an ST41651 gives 3.2MB/sec raw. (EISA) working on an aha1542 the same disk gives 1.5MB/sec raw.(ISA) The difference is as much in the bus as in the cards. The amximum data you can hope to push over an ISA bus (with good cards) is around 4MB/sec, and if you want to run anything ELSE on it you lose big-time. For Ethernet, he's right and wrong.. 1.2MB/sec is not much, but it's almost half of your ISA bandwidth.. add a tape and a disk as well, and things start slowing down.. For DOS this doesn't matter becasue you're only ever doing one thing at a time anyhow. Be warned also that he'll probably try flog you a 'caching' disk adapter saying "This will make more difference than an EISA MB will".. Dos types think like that.. For versions of 386bsd in which the cache is working upto spec, caching controllers are a waste. > > In my opinion, many of the people out there who use Unix boxes seem to >go for EISA, for whatever reasons they've got! from experience.... they work faster.. > > For myself, I would like to know for 386bsd/FreeBSD/NetBSD Unix box, >does EISA show much difference over ISA ? And with EISA, will it promise >greater trnafer rate for Ethernet card, and how about SCSI-2 HDD, is that >affected by the type of bus (since it is DMA) ? it sure does, however, if you've got one spare VESA slot, an untrastore 34F or bustek 445 (? I forget the number) will also give good performance. but then how many Vesa slots do you have? > >- wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au you don't say where in OZ you are.. I presume somewhere over-east.. julian From mikes@cs.indiana.edu Wed Sep 15 06:42:46 1993 Received: from moose.cs.indiana.edu by latcs1.lat.oz.au (5.65+/1.34) id AA20655; Wed, 15 Sep 93 06:42:42 +1000 Message-Id: <9309142042.AA20655@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Received: by moose.cs.indiana.edu (5.65c/9.4jsm) id AA02180; Tue, 14 Sep 1993 15:42:54 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 15:42:54 -0500 From: "Michael Squires" <mikes@cs.indiana.edu> To: wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au Subject: Re: ISA or EISA ? Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.questions In-Reply-To: <CD8wJM.7n8@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University Cc: Status: O There are a number of boards with EISA, ISA, and VLB slots on the same board. Only a few of these support real EISA memory addressing and DMA. VLB cards are not very well standardized, so getting something like 386BSD to run on a VLB system requires some experimentation. Currently used EISA SCSI and EThernet cards are not very expensive, when you find them. EISA isn't going to vanish, as it is widely used on high-end Novell servers and some UNIX workstations (HP), just as MCA won't vanish for the same reason. The VLB cards, however, will be cheaper. -- Mike Squires (mikes@cs.indiana.edu) 812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h) mikes@cs.indiana.edu 546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408 From max.IN-Berlin.DE!berry@methan.chemie.fu-berlin.de Tue Sep 14 08:26:07 1993 Received: from [130.133.2.81] by latcs1.lat.oz.au (5.65+/1.34) id AA25698; Tue, 14 Sep 93 08:25:54 +1000 Received: by methan.chemie.fu-berlin.de (Smail3.1.28.1) id <m0ocMKX-0001WtC>; Tue, 14 Sep 93 00:25 MES Received: from moritz.in-berlin.de by max.in-berlin.de (5.67/1.34) id (AA03250); Tue, 14 Sep 93 00:06:11 +0200 Received: from localhost by moritz.IN-Berlin.DE (8.3/1.34) id (AAA00348); Tue, 14 Sep 1993 00:06:10 +0200 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 00:06:10 +0200 From: berry@max.IN-Berlin.DE (Stefan Behrens) Message-Id: <199309132206.AAA00348@moritz.IN-Berlin.DE> To: wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au Subject: Re: ISA or EISA ? Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.questions In-Reply-To: <CD8wJM.7n8@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Organization: private site in Berlin, Germany Status: O In article <CD8wJM.7n8@latcs1.lat.oz.au> you write: >Hi, > I am thinking of upgrading to an EISA + VLB (if one exsists) board, >mainly for performance and 32 RAM access purpose! > > However, having chatted to my vendor (of my existing ISA machine), I >was told that EISA + VLB slots board does not exist, and EISA is going to >face extinction soon! I was shocked by that sort of statement, and would >like to confirm with people who use EISA machine! To my impression, it >seems as if EISA is more likely to be the trend over ISA, who is right, >me or my vendor ? Is there such a config of EISA + VLB slots ? There are many vendors for mixed EISA/ISA boards. New ones have EISA+ISA+VL on the same board. Change your vendor! I have seen offers for mixed EISA/ISA boards one year ago. Offers for mixed EISA/ISA/VL boards started in november '92 here in Berlin. > Secondly, my vendor claimed that for EISA and ISA, the performance of >Ethernet card is unlikely to make an observable difference, since the >peak transfer rate is 10Mbits/sec! And accordingly, he suggested me to stick >with my ISA + VLB slots board instead of investing in an EISA + VLB slots >board! Also, he claimed that HDD transfer rate depends mainly on the controller >instead of the type of bus ! Finally, he said the different components prices >for EISA is going to be more expensive than an ISA one, and does not worth >the extra dollars! Get an SMC Elite 16 (former known as WD8013) ethernet card. It's an ISA card and very fast, it uses shared ram. You won't even notice any speedup from an EISA card, it would be so minimal. > In my opinion, many of the people out there who use Unix boxes seem to >go for EISA, for whatever reasons they've got! ISA is old and limited to 16MB, EISA is newer and is smarter in many ways (autoconfig, >16MB, bus-masters). > For myself, I would like to know for 386bsd/FreeBSD/NetBSD Unix box, >does EISA show much difference over ISA ? And with EISA, will it promise >greater trnafer rate for Ethernet card, and how about SCSI-2 HDD, is that >affected by the type of bus (since it is DMA) ? I haven't seen any real improvements on an EISA machine running FreeBSD versus my two ISA boxes, one running FreeBSD, one running 386BSD0.1pk0.2.4. The autoconfig advantages aren't used, yet. The >16MB point is only valid if you use EISA or VL bus cards for all cards doing DMA. But that is normal case: - the IDE-hd/floppy controller is a VL bus card usually - for a good ethernet card you will use shard ram anyway, no DMA - For SCSI devices go for EISA if you plan to use more than 16MB > Has anyone done any sort of benchmarking with 386bsd/FreeBSD/NetBSD >between ISA and EISA machines of same CPU ? IMHO the difference in speed isn't noticable. The >16MB point though is an important thing to keep in mind. This year 16MB is standard (for PC-UNIXs), next year 32MB... The real reason why to get an EISA machine is the 24 bit address line limit == 16MB limit. The bus speed itself is usually enough on an ISA system. Some more aspects of EISA: And don't forget that you can plug ISA bus cards in EISA slots as well, you don't have to buy these expensive EISA bus cards for everything. Also let you say that configuring an EISA machine is a lot of work. You will have to run a mainboard-setup-program whenever you add/move a card. Especially for old cards this is difficult because they don't supply the config-file for the EISA-setup. I would buy an EISA+VL+ISA system. The speedup is not noticable, but the 16MB limit is very annoying. And it's an up to date system. -- Stefan (berry@max.IN-Berlin.DE) From rand@cs.UND.NoDak.Edu Tue Sep 14 03:01:37 1993 Received: from [134.129.212.31] by latcs1.lat.oz.au (5.65+/1.34) id AA21161; Tue, 14 Sep 93 03:01:26 +1000 Received: by agassiz.cas.und.NoDak.Edu id AA06377 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au (M.C. Wong)); Mon, 13 Sep 1993 12:01:20 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 12:01:20 -0500 From: "Douglas K. Rand" <rand@cs.UND.NoDak.Edu> Message-Id: <199309131701.AA06377@agassiz.cas.und.NoDak.Edu> To: wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au (M.C. Wong) Cc: In-Reply-To: wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au's message of 12 Sep 93 14:35:46 GMT Subject: ISA or EISA ? X-Zippy: I selected E5... but I didn't hear ``Sam the Sham and the Pharaohs''! Status: O ** wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au (M.C. Wong) on 12 Sep 93 14:35:46 GMT ** in [ISA or EISA ?] writes: M.C.> Hi, I am thinking of upgrading to an EISA + VLB (if one exsists) M.C.> board [...] However, having chatted to my vendor (of my existing M.C.> ISA machine), I was told that EISA + VLB slots board does not M.C.> exist, and EISA is going to face extinction soon! Your vendor doesn't know what is going on. Try Gateway2000, they currently have a EISA+VLB machine (not yet in the adds) for sale. -- Douglas K. Rand UND Aerospace - Scientific Computing Center Home: +1 218 773 0120 University of North Dakota Office: +1 701 777 2801 Box 9022, Grand Forks ND 58202-9022 Internet: rand@cs.UND.NoDak.Edu UUCP: ...!uunet!plains!agassiz!rand From root@corbin.rain.com Mon Sep 13 09:31:11 1993 Received: from [147.28.17.33] by latcs1.lat.oz.au (5.65+/1.34) id AA18694; Mon, 13 Sep 93 09:30:56 +1000 Received: from corbin.rain.com by agora.rain.com with smtp (Smail3.1.26.7 #19) id m0oc0sQ-00001hC; Sun, 12 Sep 93 16:30 PDT Received: by corbin.rain.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00315; Sun, 12 Sep 93 16:30:23 -0700 Message-Id: <9309122330.AA00315@corbin.rain.com> To: wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au (M.C. Wong) Subject: Re: ISA or EISA ? From: David Greenman <davidg@implode.rain.com> Reply-To: davidg@implode.rain.com Date: Sun, 12 Sep 93 16:30:23 -0700 Sender: root@corbin.rain.com Status: O > However, having chatted to my vendor (of my existing ISA machine), I >was told that EISA + VLB slots board does not exist, and EISA is going to >face extinction soon! I was shocked by that sort of statement, and would >like to confirm with people who use EISA machine! To my impression, it >seems as if EISA is more likely to be the trend over ISA, who is right, >me or my vendor ? Is there such a config of EISA + VLB slots ? > > Secondly, my vendor claimed that for EISA and ISA, the performance of >Ethernet card is unlikely to make an observable difference, since the >peak transfer rate is 10Mbits/sec! And accordingly, he suggested me to stick >with my ISA + VLB slots board instead of investing in an EISA + VLB slots >board! Also, he claimed that HDD transfer rate depends mainly on the controller >instead of the type of bus ! Finally, he said the different components prices >for EISA is going to be more expensive than an ISA one, and does not worth >the extra dollars! I suggest that you find a different vendor; the one you've talking to doesn't know what he's talking about. Regarding the EISA ethernet card: I've written a driver for 386BSD that with a WD8013EPC (ISA) board will give you near full ethernet performance (measured just last night with 'ttcp' at 1087k/second while transfering 64MB of data). EISA (compared to 16bit ISA) will get you reduced CPU useage, but probably not higher performance (at least if you're using my driver with an 8013). Also, there currently are no EISA ethernet device drivers for FreeBSD or NetBSD. But an EISA ethernet board would work in general much better than an ISA board (especially if you are doing NFS). Regarding EISA vs VLB: EISA will replace ISA. VLB is more of a fad than a real bus format. EISA + VLB motherboards *do* exist: I'm typing on a keyboard that is connected to one! Again, find a different vendor. -DG From deraadt@fsa.ca Mon Sep 13 08:14:45 1993 Received: from [136.159.216.2] by latcs1.lat.oz.au (5.65+/1.34) id AA15914; Mon, 13 Sep 93 08:14:19 +1000 Received: by fsa.ca (4.1/tdr1.0) id AA27417; Sun, 12 Sep 93 16:13:22 MDT Date: Sun, 12 Sep 93 16:13:22 MDT From: deraadt@fsa.ca (Theo Deraadt) Message-Id: <9309122213.AA27417@fsa.ca> To: wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au (M.C. Wong) In-Reply-To: wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au's message of Sun, 12 Sep 1993 14:35:46 GMT Subject: ISA or EISA ? Status: O me or my vendor ? Is there such a config of EISA + VLB slots ? Got one right here. 66 as well. From csshah@sunvis1.vislab.olemiss.edu Mon Sep 13 08:03:22 1993 Received: from [130.74.128.4] by latcs1.lat.oz.au (5.65+/1.34) id AA15704; Mon, 13 Sep 93 08:03:15 +1000 Received: from sunvis1.vislab.olemiss.edu by sun1.mcsr.olemiss.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29522; Sun, 12 Sep 93 17:06:10 CDT Received: from sunvis2.vislab.olemiss.edu by sunvis1.vislab.olemiss.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07223; Sun, 12 Sep 93 17:03:11 CDT Date: Sun, 12 Sep 93 17:03:11 CDT From: csshah@sunvis1.vislab.olemiss.edu (Viren R. Shah) Message-Id: <9309122203.AA07223@sunvis1.vislab.olemiss.edu> Received: by sunvis2.vislab.olemiss.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29001; Sun, 12 Sep 93 17:03:10 CDT To: wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au Subject: Re: ISA or EISA ? Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.questions References: <CD8wJM.7n8@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Status: O I made the same sort of enquiry a couple of weekas back, and every reply that i got indicated that EISA was the way to go. Also, there are EISA+VLB boards available, since I'm planning on getting one soon. Apparently EISA makes a BIG difference to system performance, esp. if you have >16 Mb RAM. viren viren@cy.cs.olemiss.edu PS : could you please save all the replies you get and mail them to me? or summarize them and post them? i would be very interested in the replies, as i dont wanna spend all the money on an EISA+VLB system if it has any problems with it. thanx -- - wongm@latcs1.lat.oz.au