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Xref: sserve comp.unix.bsd:12840 comp.os.386bsd.development:1364 comp.os.386bsd.questions:6431 comp.os.386bsd.misc:1355 Path: sserve!newshost.anu.edu.au!munnari.oz.au!news.Hawaii.Edu!ames!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!bsd.coe.montana.edu!nate From: nate@bsd.coe.montana.edu (Nate Williams) Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd,comp.os.386bsd.development,comp.os.386bsd.questions,comp.os.386bsd.misc Subject: Re: WILL ???BSD DIE? Date: 2 Nov 1993 22:48:57 GMT Organization: Montana State University, Bozeman MT Lines: 130 Message-ID: <2b6o4p$15s@pdq.coe.montana.edu> References: <jmonroyCFv39C.Iv1@netcom.com> <2b64ce$l4o@zip.eecs.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bsd.coe.montana.edu In article <2b64ce$l4o@zip.eecs.umich.edu>, Dan Muntz <dmuntz@quip.eecs.umich.edu> wrote: >>> (2) the 386BSD 0.1 release is no longer very useful; >>> it is old, and newer, more stable and usable >>> releases have been made. >>> >> This is an opinion. That you hold. Please substitute >> > >I'm afraid I have to agree with Jesus here. IMHO, 386bsd 0.1 + pk 0.2.4 *is* >more stable than FreeBSD (epsilon) and NetBSD 0.9 (not current). I have no idea where this comes from. Other than some changes which have made it difficult to run these releases on some hardware that ran 386BSD, in EVERY aspect the newer releases are more stable and usable than any version of 386BSD available. >People >discussing stability here have done slimy things like comparing Net and Free to >386 w/o patches, but when it comes right down to it, my 386bsd systems have >stayed up for weeks (probably months) with only one (XS3 related) crash. One >machine acts as a slip gateway, and both are used signifcantly every day for >various tasks (xtroff, simulations, remote login, games, etc.). BUT... And mine running FreeBSD has as well. Does that mean your box is more stable than mine? I've found that the biggest problem that all the free unices have is trying to work around bad hardware. If you have good hardware or don't do anything with it, the machine will stay up for a long time. I doubt that ANYBODIES machine has the load that freefall or sun-lamp gets though (the FreeBSD and NetBSD development machines). I'm sure Chris would agree that sun-lamp is much more stable under NetBSD than it was under 386BSD, and freefall just doesn't have anything bad happen to it anymore, where it would crash daily under heavy load with 386BSD. >>> There was an unofficial patch kit at one point, >>> but that has since been abandoned, and support by >>> the author has always been minimal. > >I'm not sure what this little bit of rhetoric means. The patchkit was >sufficiently supported and worked quite well. Was sufficiently supported. No one supports it now, and I doubt that you could find it anymore. >This has come up before, but perhaps someone should CFD *netbsd and/or >*freebsd newsgroups. There is not enough traffic to warrant it. The *386bsd* groups cover the topics quite well IMHO. >If there's anything we've learned from 386bsd, it's the need to keep things >in the public eye. If there's anything we've learned from 386bsd, is that product support far outweighs glitz and glamor. >When the developers retreat to their private >mail/mailing lists, some other group is liable to come along and form >StableBSD (*no*, I'm not suggesting it, there are already at least two too many >BSDs as it is) I can't speak for the NetBSD lists, but ALL of the FreeBSD lists are completely open to the public. If you want to get involved, send mail to the mailing list manager majordomo@freefall.cdrom.com. The signal to noise ratio on mailing lists is 3-4 orders of magnitude greater than in News. Also, folks tend to be more responsible about what they post in private email as compared to news. >. Along this line, I find remarks by some of the devlopers >to the effect that 'bugs/comments/etc. should be sent to the mailing lists, >because we're to busy to keep up with the newgroups' to be completely lame. Obviously you have more time in the day than I have. Hmm, let's see. 1) Family - I am married, and would like to stay that way. (And I even love my wife and do spend time with her) 2) School - Homework, classes, projects, etc.. 3) Friends - Social life. 4) Email - 100->400/day in messages to read. (seriously) 5) Responding to email - probably 10-20% of the mail messages need my attention. 6) Actually fixing bugs in FreeBSD 7) Adding features or re-writing code in FreeBSD. If I fixed bugs all day long, I'd go crazy since there is no creativity in fixing most of the bugs. (I consider this separate from bug-fixing) 8) Answering local questions, and doing projects that folks ask of me. 9) News, what's news? And I don't get paid for any of this. So, those are my 'lame' excuses. >Newsgroups are obviously the way to go if you want to get "the public" >involved. Since all of the mailing lists are 'public', those folks who have a genuine interest in doing something will get involved. Those folks who just want to sit on the sidelines and just 'USE' the code. That is fine, but since this is freeware, we (the developers) put into the code what we decide is most important, or what other folks do for us. But, if it makes you feel better, one of the FreeBSD members has been monitoring the Newsgroups and forwarding those articles he feels that need to be answered or contain useful information to the mailing lists. > If you don't want the unwashed masses messing with your code, >perhaps it will just go the way of 386bsd. They are more than welcome to mess with the code. That's why it was given away. We'd like them to send us those changes and fixes back to us, so that we can integrate them into FreeBSD, but there is no requirements in the copyright or otherwise to force the issue. However, yhey are more than welcome to create a new 'StableBSD' from it as well. But they must also be prepared to take on the responsibility to support and answer questions, and to do all those things which you are expecting out of the Free/NetBSD teams. It isn't quite so cut-and-dried as it sounds to have the development going on in the newsgroups. Nate -- nate@bsd.coe.montana.edu | Freely available *nix clones benefit everyone, nate@cs.montana.edu | so let's not compete with each other, let's work #: (406) 994-4836 | compete with folks who try to tie us down to home #: (406) 586-0579 | proprietary O.S.'s (Microsloth) - Me