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From: cosc19v2@menudo.uh.edu (cosc19v2)
Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.development
Subject: Re: users - not entirely clear on the concept
Date: 11 Jun 1994 02:27:06 -0500
Organization: University of Houston
Lines: 128
Message-ID: <2tbp0a$m1p@menudo.uh.edu>
References: <2t3g9a$s6h@menudo.uh.edu> <2t78ps$avo@rodan.uu.net> <2t7beb$p0n@menudo.uh.edu> <2tamoa$22g@u.cc.utah.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: menudo.uh.edu
In article <2tamoa$22g@u.cc.utah.edu>,
Terry Lambert <terry@cs.weber.edu> wrote:
>In article <2t7beb$p0n@menudo.uh.edu> cosc19v2@menudo.uh.edu (cosc19v2) writes:
>] On the other hand, computer is a PROGRAMMABLE hardware.
>] Software is the one which make this unforgiving hardware (computer)
>] usable by human-beings who do not know the details of the hardware.
>
>If the computer is analogous to the machine shop, then a finished program
>is analogous to a piece of furniture.
If so, the user of the furniture do not need to know how to use a hammer or
a chainsaw.
>Do not confuse the analog of the lathe with the product of its proper use;
>the tools of software production have no requirement to be as esthetically
>pleasing or a simple to use as that which is produced through their use.
I don't think that I am confused. I think that you are ignoring
"layers of software".
>Like a compiler, which may be used to produce a compiler or a word processer,
>a lathe may be used to produce parts for a lathe or parts for a table.
>
>No method of putting a checkered tablecloth on a lathe will render it a
>table.
Again, the layman do not need to know about the details of the lathe.
He only needs to know how to use it correctly to produce the parts which
was ordered.
Then the person who put the things altogether does not even need to know
how the lathe works. He only needs to know how to put together all the things.
A house wife who uses the furniture even do not need to know how to put
things together.
>I think this fundamental confusion in our industry is the result of the
>layman confusing the tools with their product. It leads the layman to
>(falsely) believe that a lathe can be made as easy to use as a table,
>if only the people who designed tables were allowed to design lathes.
Of course, the lathe should be made as easy to use as possible.
Also, using the table is not as easy as using a lathe. It can be more
difficult. For example, you should know, "table manner", which can be
extremely difficult to the layman. The point here is that
the person who uses the table only need to know the table manner, not
how the table was contructed using a lathe.
What I mean is that using LaTeX/dvips/Metafont, ...etc is no easier than
using awk/sed/sh/... or configuring NIS. They are in different layers.
LaTeX users don't need to worry about proficiencies of Unix OS.
I think that the real conflict here is :
How do you think of Unix ?
Is it a table or a lathe (or even further, chainsaw, hammer, ...)?
If I interprete your remarks correctly, you still consider unix as a lathe.
It was, very long time ago (PDP/VAX era). Not any longer.
If you still believe that any unix user should know "how to setup NIS",
"how to setup senmail.cf", how to program in awk/sed/perl/...etc.,
I think that you are mistaken.
Consider a graduate student. What he wants to do is :
Send mails, Connect to internet (for ftp and telnet), Do LaTeX for
his/her thesis, Preview (postscript previewer), Compile f77,...etc.
He/She really doesn't need to go to the SUN workstation and
read unix man pages for yp* in order to know how to set up NIS
(which is FreeBSD's approach at this moment). Even though he did 'man'
there, he wouldn't understand it, which would force him to know the other
stuffs. It is totally a waste of time to him.
On the other hand, consider the Linux/Slackware approach.
It asks : What is your node name ? address ? domain address ?
name server address ? network number ? netmask ?
Now, he goes to the site sysadm and ask for those informations.
After he types the informations, everything works - mail works, ftp works,
news works ....
The person who wrote that script must be a very smart person who
knows how to use the lathe skillfully and knows the system very well.
He is the person who understands this software layer scheme,
and thus let all other users be free from the inside-headaches
which users don't need to suffer from.
BTW, I really don't have any objection, if you declare that
*BSD is a lathe and normal users are not recommended to use,
since *BSD is your, developers', core team's contributions.
If you really think so, please say it officially.
There have been lots of arguments about "Linux vs. BSD".
If you would kindly specify that BSD is for the people who knows
how to use various unix tools (skillfully) and knows the inside-structures
(i.e. system adminitrators, programmers, hackers), there would be much less
complaints/noises. And people should know what OS they should choose when
they are faced with "Linux or BSD ?".
Also, I believe that one can learn unix by first (easily) installing it and
then exporing one's knowledge (I think that many Linux users are in this case).
Everyone was a novice and one needs to have some easy starting point.
You are arguing that one should know how to use unix tools/know internals
before people start the unix. But the problem here is that if you don't have
enough experience, you really cannot know it. Just reading books won't work.
My point was :
From my short experience with FreeBSD, it is a very good system.
My wish is that more people be able to use it. I guess that it is also your
wish (or not ?).
I have been preparing some answers of "Linux vs. BSD", but it seems to me
that it is not really needed any longer. Some kind people aleady exchanged
good ideas about it, and finally, your (development group's) answer remains.
Besides, it doesn't seem that I can finish it before I leave ....
While I was a little surprised to see that a FAQ maintainer of this newsgoup
said, "go away, leave us alone.", I am very glad that someone in FreeBSD
core team said, "Anyone is welcome".
Now, I have to leave and will make no noise here. :) :)
All I can say is : "Good Luck". "Thank you".
Yes. I am taking FreeBSD with me :) :)
And I'll spread it where I'll reside ...
Bye.
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i.a.i.