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Path: sserve!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.mira.net.au!news.netspace.net.au!serval.net.wsu.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!oracle.pnl.gov!osi-east2.es.net!lll-winken.llnl.gov!unixhub!news.Stanford.EDU!tip-mp4-ncs-9.stanford.edu!user From: terryl@cs.stanford.edu (Terry Lee) Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.misc Subject: Re: OpenBSD. PLEASE PLEASE! Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 16:05:12 -0800 Organization: Stanford University Lines: 103 Message-ID: <terryl-1901951605120001@tip-mp4-ncs-9.stanford.edu> References: <3fhc5s$atq@nntp.stanford.edu> <3fhpm2$chu@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tip-mp4-ncs-9.stanford.edu In article <3fhpm2$chu@agate.berkeley.edu>, jkh@violet.berkeley.edu (Jordan K. Hubbard) wrote: > In article <3fhc5s$atq@nntp.stanford.edu>, > Terry Lee <yoda@rescomp.Stanford.EDU> wrote: > >I submit this as a plea to the wonderful developers of FreeBSD and NetBSD. > >I'm a new BSD user. And I've tried Linux too. > > I'm sorry, Terry, but all of this is just incredibly naive. I'm somehow > reminded of a wide-eyed flower child with beads in his hair saying > "It's all so simple, why can't we all just love eachother and be friends > and have no more war and live forever in bliss and eternal harmony?" With all due respect, Jordan, merging two relatively small groups that haven't really gotten along in the past is hardly eternal harmony. You seem to be a bit prone to hyperbole. I may be mildly naive to the inner workings of BSD, but certainly not 'incredibly' naive. I've taken the time to follow all the relevant threads as much as possible. > >After reading all the posts it seems to me that at the root of both teams is > >this. You both enjoy writing UNIX code. And you both want people to use > >your OS. When all other considerations are gone, it seems only these two > >remain. > > Yes, AFTER all other considerations are gone, I suppose you're right! :-) > But what makes you think that the other considerations can be so easily > dismissed? Based on what I've read, I certainly do NOT think that getting to a unified effort would be easy at all. But it seems that at this point in time, a divided effort is almost totally contrary to promoting a prolific and solid user base. All the other considerations seem to me to be mostly growing pains of some sort. Yes, they sound painful as hell, but I think people need to stop a face the facts of life. If NetBSD and FreeBSD were the only free UN*Xs around then things would look good for BSD, but they are not the only ones, and the two combined are not even a close second right now. Please understand, I say this with the greatest respect to the teams. After all, I'm rooting for BSD! > >But if you want people to use your code, then you have to stop thinking > >like programmers for a second, and think marketing. Just for a second > >mind you. > > Believe me. We DO think about "marketing." I am frequently taken > to task by my peers for thinking too much about `marketing'. Our failure > is not insufficient understanding of marketing. We know very well the > deleterious effects of the non-merge situation, but we accept them because > we know that life isn't quite the simplistic picture that you paint. You accept them?! Perhaps I seem simplistic because perhaps you still underestimate these deleterious effects. A free robust OS based on BSD 4.4! I think we are talking about a potential user base of hundreds of thousands. And you're willing to resign to just a several thousand, or more,... or less. Simplistic, yes! I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that my perception is that BSD is dog paddling, and a unified effort may be the difference between sink or swim. > >I've read that some BSD people don't give a hoot about Linux. I think that > > Then you've hardly read the opinions of any of the BSD people that matter. > I think both core teams are well aware of Linux's success, and many of > the things that put it there. We hardly regard Linux as insignificant. I apologize, I didn't mean insignificant. I thought the BSD FAQ gave a definite impression that some BSD people really did not care to hear about Linux or put it up against BSD. I realize now parts of the FAQ are quite dated, and I may have misinterpreted them a bit. > >You want to enjoy what you are doing. Without that there is no project. You > >also want a solid user base. Without it there is no project. I think the > > Yes, yes. Do you think you're lecturing to a junior high school class here? > Everything you've said has been incredibly obvious so far.. I apologize if I offended anyone. > >Someone said the perhaps 3/4 of the members of both teams were in favor of > > You're certainly on the receiving end of a lot of bogus statistics! :-) > > >Please! I think more than anything else you could do for BSD, more than any > >new kernel code or new device driver, a unified effort > >would be by far the best thing you could do for the users and potential users. > > While we're being so idealistic, do you think we might do something about > world hunger? Well, Linux might just be to BSD what world hunger is to the peoples of this Earth. Respectfully yours, Terry Lee P.S. Someone wrote to me and suggested that the term 'Open' tends to make him want "to run away, very fast, screaming, from anything containing the word 'open'. You may find more of this sentiment out there as you talk to people. 'Open'ness has screwed the industry over many times, mostly due to braindead interactions with various government agencies." Quite a few people seem to like the sound of OpenBSD, but I see your point. My point was just I think that names can make a big difference, and that the current names had a couple failings.