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Xref: sserve comp.sys.powerpc:33426 comp.sys.intel:30854 comp.unix.bsd:16022 comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit:8073 comp.unix.sys5.r4:9146 comp.unix.misc:15821 comp.os.linux.development:23100 comp.os.linux.misc:34467 comp.os.386bsd.development:3116 comp.os.386bsd.misc:5186 comp.os.misc:3745 Path: sserve!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!munnari.oz.au!hpg30a.csc.cuhk.hk!agate!overload.lbl.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!news.alpha.net!news.mathworks.com!news2.near.net!info-server.bbn.com!SNIT.BBN.COM!fgoldstein From: fgoldstein@bbn.com (Fred R. Goldstein) Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc,comp.sys.intel,comp.unix.bsd,comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,comp.unix.sys5.r4,comp.unix.misc,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.386bsd.development,comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.misc Subject: Re: X on dial-in Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 17:17:28 LOCAL Organization: Bolt Beranek & Newman Inc. Lines: 84 Message-ID: <fgoldstein.135.00237A26@bbn.com> References: <3f44s2$jqm@maverick.maverick.tad.eds.com> <D36ry6.4H3@kerberos.demon.co.uk> <D3A5Iu.pD@park.uvsc.edu> <fgoldstein.131.001DC8B4@bbn.com> <D3C4Bp.I46@park.uvsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: snith.bbn.com X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4] In article <D3C4Bp.I46@park.uvsc.edu> Terry Lambert <terry@cs.weber.edu> writes: >>fgoldstein@bbn.com (Fred R. Goldstein) wrote: >] Many US telcos charge cents/minute for local ISDN data calls but not for voice >] calls. Thus a modem is cheaper, bit for bit. Especially for residential >] users; business is more often charged for all calls. BUT if your ISDN gear >] supports "data over speech bearer service" (DOSBS), then you can make "speech" >] calls over the ISDN line and pass data at 56 kbps! It works just fine on >] almost all LOCAL and intra-LATA calls, but not on most inter-LATA calls. >This is 60 * 24 * 30 = 432.00 per penny per minute per month. No, it's $0.00 per month, because residential users can make "speech" calls for free in most states. California is an exception; ISDN speech pays during the day. New York City is an exception; nobody ever can make free calls nohow. And if you need 60*24*30 minutes, then you should have a leased line! >I find it morally objectionable the people are expected to pay for >incoming data -- especially potentially unsolicited data. Huh? You're paying for connectivity. Who passes what to whom is none of the carrier's, or IP Provider's, business. If you're being spammed, your compalint is with the spammer. >Don't fool yourself into beliveing that daytime speech calls are not >going to be metered elsewhere as well. In most states (well, I think all), local rates are regulated, and political pressure has overcome telco desires to meter all speech calls. There have been some notable failures, though, where telco has screwed the res. users the way they've been screwing bus. users. >] Also, you don't leave the line up 24 hours a day! For that a leased line or >] FR makes more sense. But for part-time netsurfer, it's great! (I use it.) >Then you don't need a line. Use a 28.8 modem instead. Huh? ISDN is twice as fast as 28.8 and costs little more (same local call rate for "speech" calls at 56k; some extra monthy cost - $8 in MA) in most places. >I don't *want* to be endpointed at yet another middleman who wants >his pound of flesh. >Ideally, I want to be enpointed into a Frame Relay cloud, and as >part of the flat rate, pay my fractional share of the T3 from the >cloud to the Internet backbone. Currently, I have to pay for a full >virtual circuit; either an ISDN line, or a Frame Relay cloud-of-one, >where I have to pay the freight to both endpoints (mine and the >providers). This is bogus. What do you think the "Internet Backbone" is? It's just a collection of random service providers. MCI, Sprint and America On Line's ANS subsidiary provide inter-regional backbone services and some retail. BBNISC (my employer) provides regional backbone/leased line services in many places. By definition, you connect (however) to a provider, and that provider talks to the other providers. Some providers, of course, are better-connected than others, and that may be reflected in their pricing. The "however", btw, is undefined: You can connect IP nodes together with direct modem dialup + PPP, or with Frame Relay, ATM, SMDS, X.25, DECnet portals, SNA portals, or any other bizarro protocol into which you can encapsulate IP packets. >US West *can't* provide this service because making the T3->Internet >connection means that they would be a common carrier for my traffic, >which might go interstate. Any time you cross a tarrif boundry, >someone new makes money. Not true. They are allowed to carry the traffic, so long as they don't carry it across a LATA boundary. (They can hand it off at another carrier's Point of Presence. That's how voice and X.25 work.) There may be some other non-LATA restrictions but I suspect it's just a market they're not terribly interested in fighting over. >Why do you think people are scrambling to be providers? It's because >there's lots of money in it for the short term. Actually, it's one of the few instances in telecomm history where a true "free market" has existed! Economics will take their toll. It is competitive, and in a truly competitive market, prices tend to equal costs. (Microeconomics 101.) During a rapid growth phase of the market, providers are still learning about costs, pricing, and the rest of their business, but it will stabilize. ___ Fred R. Goldstein k1io fgoldstein@bbn.com Bolt Beranek & Newman Inc., Cambridge MA USA +1 617 873 3850 Opinions are mine alone; sharing requires permission.