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Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd Path: sserve!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!munnari.oz.au!hpg30a.csc.cuhk.hk!news.ust.hk!nntp.hk.super.net!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!xlink.net!news.ppp.de!news.Hanse.DE!wavehh.hanse.de!cracauer From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer) Subject: Re: Linux vs. BSD?! Message-ID: <1995Mar7.131420.11351@wavehh.hanse.de> Organization: The Internet References: <3ira54$7vq@quandong.itd.adelaide.edu.au> <3ivt1u$ip@fido.asd.sgi.com> <3j04a0$sfu@deep.rsoft.bc.ca> <3j0fch$j72@fido.asd.sgi.com> <3j0qv0$ai3@deep.rsoft.bc.ca> <1995Mar1.111604.25864@wavehh.hanse.de> <3jbrf1$vl@delos.BSDI.COM> <1995Mar5.171038.26486@wavehh.hanse.de> <3jfj9f$h9g@fido.asd.sgi.com> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 13:14:20 GMT Lines: 79 lm@slovax.engr.sgi.com (Larry McVoy) writes: >Has anyone considered that perhaps the reason that people don't like >a GPLed OS is that the OS hackers are scared to write applications? >It's easier to do yet another SCSI framework than it is to figure out >how to do WordPerfect. A shame, because anyone that can hack in the >kernel is almost certainly capable of doing some very nice applications. Yes, but is is more fun to discuss a SCSI interface with some other hacker than to discuss a Workperfect-Clone installation with some dump user. I can understand why the folks working on free operating systems work for people with the same attitude. I'm happy with my freeware-loaded machine and it makes a good platform for my work. But I'd really like to work on a platform I can offer to a DOS user without making him/her a UNIX hacker. This is not possible with free platforms, since nobody cares to implement the neccecary dumlp-user stuff. So far so good. What I am complaining about is that commercialy UNIX vendors have the same attitude. It makes little difference whether I offer a workstation or a Linux/*BSD-machine to a DOS user. He will not be able to use wordprocessing, spreadsheet and charts packages as he could on a windows machines. Neither are there `unvisible' emulators, nor are there packages of equal quality (not to speak of the price). Ian Joyer (the man who wrote the 'C++ critique') once made an interesting model: There are three levels of computer users: 1) ordinary end-user who don't want to learn anything, just use software. 2) power-users, mostly capable of programming. Here are religious people, may it be for programming languages or operating systems. 3) "Those who are really skilled in computer science and programming." They don't care anymore for religious issues anymore and do what they're paid for (but decide by themself *how* it is done). But they don't do actual work, they only enable other people to do work more efficient. Most stuff written for level-1 people is developed by level-3-people, while the level-2-folks are writing programs for other level-2-people. Level-3-work is so damaged by dump mananger decisions that it is unuseable for level-2-folks. Since level 2 enjos writing tools, this is not a big problems, they have the necccary tools to do some 'real' work. [Joyner originally made this 3-level model to complain about C++, but I don't think this makes sense]. I think most people in the GNU/BSD/Linux community fall into category 2. The resulting systems are not useable for level-1-people. I don't feel too uncomfortable with having a level-2-optimized system on my desk. But even more I'd like to have a system I feel comfortable on, but that makes it not too difficult for a level-1-user to reach. That would make it easier to buy level-2-equipment in companies and could make many level-1-people a bit more careful about how much they should learn to reach better productivity. The current level-2-systems are more dump-user-hostile than they have to be. The commercialy UNIX vendors could make a difference here, but as the free hackers they continue to expand their systems so they can attract more level-2-people. I would like it better to have user-friendly extentions, although I don't use them by myself. Even as a level-2-user I feel that most recent extentions (Sysem Vr4 against the `old' BSD as an example) are not worth the money. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Private email Martin.Cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de Fax +4940 522 8536. No NeXTMail!