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Path: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!palmer.demon.co.uk!palmer.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: gary@palmer.demon.co.uk (Gary Palmer) Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc Subject: Re: Why isn't NetBSD popular? Date: 17 Aug 1995 03:49:05 +0100 Organization: none Lines: 95 Message-ID: <40uan1$4tb@palmer.demon.co.uk> References: <DDACyE.CBt@seas.ucla.edu> <VIXIE.95Aug14011302@wisdom.home.vix.com> <40nj98$8g2@news.belwue.de> <40rpge$fta@orion.cc.andrews.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc.my.org X-NNTP-Posting-Host: palmer.demon.co.uk Xref: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc:758 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:4515 In article <40rpge$fta@orion.cc.andrews.edu>, Andrew Gillham <gillham@andrews.edu> wrote: >As for the packages that you mention... That is somewhat questionable. >I understand where you might think of FreeBSD as being the core OS, >_plus_ X11R6, various X programs, etc, etc, but I have to disagree. I >think the OS is the OS, and everything else is an addon. It would also >be nice if NetBSD had more packages available, but it is not necessary >as most programs work out of the box. OK, I agree, FreeBSD is what you get when you install everything (save X11) that the installer offers on it's menu (if you've seen the 2.0.5 installer you'll know what I mean). But that does not mean we have to stop there. Does Sun stop at just selling machines and the OS? No, they sell webservers, firewalls, and encrypting routers, based on their product. Whilst the ports/packages system may not be part of the base/core OS that we provide, I think we are obligated to make it as easy as possible for people to run what they want on FreeBSD. When I make a port, I don't particulary think of how difficult it easy it may or may not be to compile out of the box, I want to provide a service for end users who have heard of a program from a friend, but don't know where to get it. With the increasing load being put on the archie servers, this is becoming more and more difficult. The ports collection, more than anything, is a collection of software which people who run FreeBSD have found useful. In quite a few cases, it's basically a very smart system for pulling a .tar.gz file off a ftp server, extracting and compiling it. Ok. Wow. But if it helps people, I consider it a worthwhile effort. If it makes more people run FreeBSD, I can't complain. >Be honest for a minute and think >about whether FreeBSD would be as "snazzy" as it is if Walnut Creek was >not pushing it as a product? Because of the commercial interest they >are adding tons of packages, not because those packages are part of the >OS. Thinking about Linux for a bit, is it Linus Torvalds that is adding >all of the glitzy programs to Linux, or the Slackware (et. al) people? Interesting scenario. However, what-if scenarios, this one in particular, are interesting to debate, but worthless in the end. This is debating now what should have been done in the past. Whilst working on the 2.0.5 install system with Jordan, et al, the fact that a nice flashy, hold-your-hands install, might sell more CDROM's didn't really occur to me. The fact that it may make FreeBSD more popular IN GENERAL, did. The people who buy CDROM's from Walnut Creek are a fraction of our total user base. Sure, some shouting from a certain member of WC's staff probably made us stop and think, but that's only as he's not a UN*X power user, and needs hand-holding as much as anyone else. As it happens, the CDROM install was the first one to be finished through the simple fact it's possibly the easiest of the lot to code. And I think you are going back on something you said further up. If you don't consider the ports/packages system part of the OS, why mention it there? As it happens, part of the reason that ports/packages exist is that it is a nice place to stick stuff which we DON'T want to be part of the base system! Jordan may joke occasionally about importing emacs into the source tree, linking it statically and putting it on the root filesystem of every FreeBSD box in existance, but it's just that - a joke. >Basically in my ramble above, I was trying to point out that the OS is >just the core of the whole "package", but you're comparing the NetBSD >OS, with the FreeBSD "package" (sorry Jordan, I think you know what I >mean). Once a company starts selling NetBSD CDs, then you'll be seeing >this "user-friendly" aspect that you are wanting. I think you are dis-illusioned somewhere. We didn't spend several long, tiring weeks hacking together the 2.0.5R installer because Walnut Creek told us to, or because we felt any great need to increase their sales, but becasue IT WAS NEEDED. (In fact, as a Walnut Creek employee, my boss shouted at me several times to stop working on it and get on with other stuff). People, during the reign of the bunch of shell scripts that was the 2.0R installer, kept pointing to Linux and saying that our installer sucked, and to go crawl back under our rock. It hurt, but it was true. It did suck. We didn't want our hard work on the system proper to go wasted because people didn't like our install system. The first thing when you unwrap a new goodie to stick on your nice, expensive workstation is the installer, whether it be a piece of software or a piece of hardware (as you still need drivers). Having a installer which is counter-intuitive and difficult to use, or even non-obvious to the normal ``I've installed DOS, I can do this'' person, just leaves a bitter taste in their mouth, especially if they throw their arms up in disgust and throw it back in the bin. This is not how we want FreeBSD to be perceived. Whether we receive donations from Walnut Creek or not, we needed an install system which didn't require a degree in mathematics to understand the introductory screen. The ``flashy install system'' came around out of a need for it's existance, not because someone at Walnut Creek CDROM pulled a string. Gary -- FreeBSD Core Member E-Mail: Gary@Palmer.Demon.co.uk, gpalmer@FreeBSD.org