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Path: sserve!manuel!munnari.oz.au!uunet!kithrup!stanford.edu!agate!soda.berkeley.edu!wjolitz From: wjolitz@soda.berkeley.edu (William F. Jolitz) Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd Subject: Re: Catch What They're Saying About Us... Date: 24 Sep 1992 20:55:51 GMT Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association Lines: 360 Message-ID: <19ta0nINNj2q@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <19oe23INNqh0@agate.berkeley.edu> <VIXIE.92Sep23102423@cognition.pa.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu In article <VIXIE.92Sep23102423@cognition.pa.dec.com> vixie@pa.dec.com (Paul A Vixie) writes: >(open letter to Lynne Jolitz) [Of course. Any time Mr. Vixie starts off on a topic unrelated to the thread discussed, he calls it an "open letter", instead of sending email. However, my message was selectively edited by Mr. Vixie. As such, I have not edited out the contents of this message for my response, to avoid additional loss of context. LGJ] >> It's pretty amazing what's being said about 386BSD and >> the people who've worked so hard on it. This encapsulation refers to a "challange" I posted to both the 386BSD users and the Linux users, to try to "better both systems". Since 386BSD and Linux are publically available systems, with hundreds of thousands of users out there right now, I had the idea that competitions to improve both would encourage everyone to critically examine their work and improve it. By talking to each other, neither group would be able to get away with sloppy work or thinking, or poorly substantiated claims. I have received lots of email from both Linux and 386BSD users who are excited at the prospect of racing the systems, tinkering with them, and making them better. These contests can speed along new work and, at the same time, be really fun. It is unfortunate that a person who I barely know and have no contact with to speak of has chosen to use this positive challange to launch a personal attack on me and 386BSD, using BSDi (which has not ever been a part of this thread, as they are a proprietary system), as a kind of battering ram. I am puzzled as to why this has occurred, since I have always viewed BSDi as irrelevent to the freely available software discussions. While I have known for some time that Mr. Vixie is very close to Mr's Bostic, Karels, McKusick, and Adams, and tends to agree with their views, I have been dissuaded by others from responding to his earlier attacks in netnews, with the reason given that he is going through severe personal problems. I felt sorry for him, and I thought he would right himself eventually. However, I do not feel I can continue allowing him to attack me and the entire 386BSD community, nor use BSDi as a weapon in this regard. Personal problems aside, his statements are inappropriate and must be rectified. I apologize to readers for what has occurred, and I ask the indulgence of those who are impatient with the ugly turn this thread has taken to please remember that both Bill and I want people to feel good about the work their doing with 386BSD, and that while we sometimes cannot let attacks go unanswered, we prefer to spend our time helping others achieve their goals. Now, to the task at hand: >Something comes to mind about people and glass houses, Lynne. You and Bill >have said a lot of very biting things about BSDi, and true or not, you look >pretty blood-thirsty and vindictive. When I stop reading in the trade press >about how you and Bill are the good guys and BSDi are the bad guys, I will >have a lot more sympathy for your understandably negative reaction to all the >biting and unfair things they're saying about you over in the Linux group. First, regarding the statements in the trade press. When I go back through my published clippings, I actually find very little (beyond our articles in DDJ, which are technical in nature) specific to 386BSD, with the exception of a few postive editorials and a few interviews. In personal discussions and email, people have been very positive about 386BSD, but that is not the trade press. However, with the press and our 386BSD users, we have chosen to be fully disclosed with respect to 386BSD. Our hope is to see it used, be improved, and perhaps someday be of help to our industry. There has been extensive trade press writings about the USL/UCB suit, since USL (nee AT&T) and UCB (via CSRG/BSDi) are very large entities, and have an enormous impact on a large number of people. Since we are not a party to this suit, we are not of "topical" interest to the press. A possible reason that BSDi was not treated as kindly by the trade press as Mr. Vixie felt should have occurred may have stemmed from the way they reacted to the USL suit. According to the trade press contacts which I have, BSDi sent out press releases with copies of the suit posturing themselves as a small independent startup being destoyed by a large company bent on domination. This is a very serious charge, and one meriting serious investigation. However, a charge like this only stands if the "victim" is truly innocent of the attacks -- otherwise, this tactic may be viewed by the press as a "sympathy" ploy. Since the press is not a company PR outfit, but a group of pretty smart and industry-saavy people who have seen it all before, they may not buy the story as written and instead investigate further. It is dangerous to attempt to manipulate the press. In this case, many people in the press had been following this story for some time, and were aware of the conflict-of-interest between CSRG and BSDi, the arrangements for investments, the secret directors, and so forth (as documented in BSDi's filings with the State of Virginia Board of Corporations, and in information from the parties to the suits themselves). Since this story was not looking black-and-white, they investigated still further. They had no need to recourse to us, since sworn statements and interviews were available in great amounts. That is the first duty of the press -- to verify information prior to going to print. As such, if there has been any negative press regarding BSDi, it was determined by the editors who published that this is correct information. If anyone has a problem with a published statement, there is legal recourse in this area. Neither Bill or I can make the press publish what we want. I'm sorry, but we are just two people. Not even Bill Gates can keep a magazine or a book from saying positive or negative things about him. As to the Linux people, with one (somewhat amusing) exception, people seem to like the idea of competition (even the exception). I recall that Orwell's "1984" used to be required reading. If having a free press print the truth is "blood-thirsty and vindictive", then we are one small step away from the slogans "Knowledge is Ignorance" and "Slavery is Freedom". > >> Since I'm not one who likes to let disinformation be the order of the day, Again, this related to a few poorly substantiated comments regarding 386BSD, hence the open competition challange. If Mr. Vixie had bothered to include the rest of my sentence, it would have continued to state that I propose an open competition between Linux and 386BSD, with the goal of "bettering both systems". The statement synopsized above has nothing to do with either Mr. Vixie or BSDi, but was instead selectively edited and used by Mr. Vixie to continue his personal attack. >Whether an assertion constitutes "disinformation" or not depends on the context >of the listener. I agree with your categorization of some of the Linux folks' >comments as "disinformation" -- but this probably won't help you think of me >as a friend or ally, since I also categorize some of your comments about BSDi >as "disinformation". Again, I have not even spoken of BSDi in this thread. >386BSD is good stuff. BSDi is also good stuff. There are some good people >contributing to each. This is most confusing, as there is no relationship in any way with 386BSD and BSDi. 386BSD is a freely available system. There are no license restrictions. There is no charge for use. There is an enormous international user base for 386BSD, closing on 250,000 copies (according to UNIX Magazin's latest estimate). This user base is self-supporting, very active, and very creative. The linux user base is also very active and growing. They are perfect for competing with us in "speed races" and other competitions, doing some interesting work, and having a bit of fun all at the same time. BSDi is a commercial system, with a small user base, and is proprietary, licensed, and expensive. As to software contributions, if someone wants to contribute to a commercial proprietary system, there is nothing that precludes them from doing so to my knowledge. A programmer can take their work and contribute it to DEC, or SUN, or even USL/AT&T for that matter. As for myself, I prefer to see our work go out to all of the user base, and not a select few. BSDi is completely irrelevent to us. To paraphrase Bill Joy, "We've got more customers than they do", and we must spend our time on meeting the needs of our user base. >Both will have a huge effect on the BSD universe. Well, I do know that 386BSD has had a considerable impact on the BSD community. There has been more good work and more "new BSD stars" arising in the last six months than had occurred in the previous six years. We've reached a quarter of a million talented people, not counting those who read about 386BSD in English, German, Japanese, and French, among other languages. It is an exciting time. I don't know about BSDi however. Everyone I talk to says that this firm hasn't got a chance -- no reputable firm would finance them given what has already occurred, and no commercial firm wants their product with all this legal action flying back and forth. This was anticipated for many years, and is no great surprise. In the words of a kind and successful corporate CEO who taught me quite a bit about the business: "Examine the "compelling need". If there is no compelling need, there is no business. This has nothing to do with whether a technology is "good" or "bad", but only with whether selling to the perceived needs of a targetted customer base is actually viable." The core user base for BSD -- the universities, the colleges, the researchers, the developers and those who just want to learn -- are usually strapped for funding. Thus, this audience doesn't offer much in the way of commercial prospects. In addition, they are self-supporting (via the network, email, and other avenues), and have little funding for paid support. BSD is a university creation, and it has been very successful in its niche. As I stated earlier, BSDi is irrelevent to the 386BSD customer base. >But watching you and Bill and BSDi this last year or so, I wonder if the Rebels >could have blown up the Death Star if they had also been busy fighting among >themselves. I find the "Star Wars" analogy amusing, but irrelevent. Viewing us as "rebels" may appear heroic, but 386BSD was not developed for the purpose of doing battle with commercial companies. 386BSD was developed by Bill over four years and contributed to UCB with the express purpose that it be made available to the BSD user base, in order to allow people to use BSD on inexpensive platforms and continue to work on new ideas. The system was ready for users in 1989, but it's release was consistently put-off by CSRG. Ultimately, an attempt was made to take it private and allow CSRG staff members to make money off of it, by channeling interested parties to their own firm. Since Bill was the developer, he had an obligation to see this project through, and he did. The result was 386BSD. It's success is now a matter of record. Aside from these dubious activities, BSDi's legal battles have actually been predicated by it's own precipitous actions, such as intentionally using USL's trademark in their number. While the merits of the complaint are a matter of separate debate, the point is that they were fully aware prior to this that an action such as this would bring on legal attacks, but chose to go ahead and take on the battle. It may be hard for some people on the outside of the situation to understand (unless you have a business background), but there were alternatives to the path they chose. They chose the one fraught with disaster. Most startups fail -- even good ones. That is a fact. As such, one doesn't try to bring on additional liabilities while one is attempting to establish a foothold. Reviewing the last year from a business perspective, BSDi is a textbook example of what not to do when launching a startup. The number of business, strategic, and PR blunders that have been made by this firm are truly staggering. Hubris can never compensate for good business judgement. However, when BSDi finally does fail, they can take comfort in the fact that they are in good company. >The Linus thing that's going on is a continuation of the same >stupid battle. 386BSD isn't the enemy. Linux isn't the enemy. As I said earlier, I've received lots of email from both groups excited at the prospect of competition. There is no antagonism between Linus or ourselves (he's a nice guy), and we're all working towards similar goals -- better freely available systems. Some of our fans are a bit overenthusiastic, but that is why the open competition is such a good idea. People who just want to fill up bandwidth without thinking get caught quickly by both sides -- and in the case of 386BSD, thinking is allowed. >BSD/386 is >certainly not the enemy. CSRG isn't the enemy. I'm not sure why we need an >"enemy" at all, but if there is one it's not any of the above-named folks. Since this thread had nothing to do with BSDi or CSRG until Mr. Vixie brought it up, I hope that the references to "enemies" will be considered by readers to be just a creation of Mr. Vixie's mind, and not the general view of the 386BSD user base. >> My hope is that competition and open discussion/debate, handled in a >> professional manner, might promote a lot of new ideas, especially regarding >> optimization of the system. We could all benefit from a bit of critical >> thinking. Again, this is synopsized from my statement, and, given my explaination of the proposed competition above, I hope readers will understand what I was actually saying and agree with it. >Charity begins at home. Am I now to expect that your future criticisms of >BSDi will be "handled in a professional manner" ? Would that it were so! Charity is a strange choice of words. The competition has nothing to do with BSDi or charity. But let's speak of "charity" and giving to others for a moment, for this is the heart of the whole issue. Bill spent many years working on and completing this project. We have made it available, and I try to help people with it as much as we can. We get no grants or funding for this project -- it is entirely a dream for the future. In addition, Bill and I have been encouraging people to participate in the DDJ Careware program. By sending a dollar or more, 386BSD users can directly help an abused child get a respite weekend, help a disabled child communicate with computers, and help a poor child find a safe place to stay after school, among other worthy causes. The reason that the Careware Program was launched by DDJ several years ago to allow readers a way of giving back something to our larger community in which we live. I think this is a wonderful idea, and should be encouraged. Compuserve has offered to make part of the download fees for 386BSD available to this charity, so it is not just individuals who are responding, but corporations as well. 386BSD, while valuable to our users, is still just a piece of software. But if in some way it can be used to help another to a better life, than it has been worth every hour that every contributor has put into it. BSDi, on the other hand, is probably the most adversely impacted by both 386BSD software activities and Careware charity activities. By taking 386BSD and twisting it their own proprietary and costly product, BSDi cannot easily match the rapid growth and learning curve which a freely available version allows. Also, since the systems have diverged (and will continue to diverge), they cannot easily take advantage of new work in 386BSD, unless they decide to appropriate whole portions of the system. In this case, their much-touted leading-edge firm appears like the tail wagging the dog. In addition, even with a small paid staff, a single small company cannot compete with the hundreds of thousands of users making changes and adding new things to the system every day. But this is again, irrelevent, as BSDi is not a freely available system. They do not put their changes on the net, but instead hold them to themselves closely. They have received many changes from CSRG (one and the same with BSDi), but are not distributing them. They have even received Chris Torek's sparc code, paid for by the taxpayers, which has not been made available to others despite repeated requests, and are currently attempting to make money off of it in the same manner in which they tried to appropriate 386BSD. If we hadn't spent the time making sure 386BSD was completed and distributed, it still would not be available either. As I look over again this entire message, I can only assume that this diatribe against me and 386BSD is merely the desperate and jealous rantings of a person who resents deeply the success that 386BSD has achieved, as well as our personal honesty and commitment to this project. The 386BSD community now supports each other, helps each other, and encourages each other. I see new talent growing in ability every day. I hope that the 386BSD user commmunity continues to strive for excellence. No amount of petty vindictiveness can derail this effort now, and I hope that we can all get back to the business at hand -- making 386BSD, our industry, and our larger community a better place. Thank you for your patience with this long response. Lynne Jolitz.