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Path: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!night.primate.wisc.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!koala.uwec.edu!daffy.anetsrvcs.uwrf.edu!cakerwood!not-for-mail From: bl03@uwrf.edu (BENJAMIN A LINDSTROM) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.unix.misc Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.unix.misc Date: 1 Dec 1995 23:22:10 GMT Lines: 136 Message-ID: <49o2n2$t4e@daffy.anetsrvcs.uwrf.edu> References: <489kuu$rbo@pelican.cs.ucla.edu> <4972bn$psq@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <49ijf9$9rc@tombstone.kent.edu> <30BD2617.23585C28@mcs.net> <49k0dd$pfg@nntp5.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cakerwood.acc.uwrf.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950726BETA PL0] Xref: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au comp.os.linux.advocacy:28798 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:9605 comp.unix.advocacy:11574 comp.unix.misc:19741 Clint Olsen (olsenc@kodiak.ee.washington.edu) wrote: : In article <30BD2617.23585C28@mcs.net>, : Craig Bergren <cbergren@mcs.net> wrote: : : I would like to dedicate this to "Why are we no longer running Linux?" : : Most importantly, Slackware releases rearely synced with stable : releases of the kernel!!! Separate distributions from the kernel : caused us no end of grief. Slackware still gets quite a bit of : criticism. Gee, is it a kernel or a distribution problem? : What would Linus know about Slackware? :) If you ask the : distribution owners, they'd say, "What kernel are you running? : Maybe you should upgrade? I'm using 1.X.X and it works fine." : When ever you have the Kernel hackers seperate from the distribution(s) you will have this type of problem. : 2) At the time of Linux 1.0.9, console hangs were prevelant, causing : grief for users. The only solution was to upgrade, but there was : only so far we could upgrade w/o installing a totally new Slackware and : going through the same grief (ELF). : <strange look>...Umm..Why did I never run into that problem? I've installed many slackware additions...It could be I never stayed at 1.0.x kernel.=) 1.2.x kernels have a lot of improvements with consoles..You don't need to upgrade slackware to support 1.2.x kernel.=) : 3) Linux NFS performance sucked. The only way to fix this was to go to : a 1.3.X kernel (apparently), and we were not interested in screwing : around with alpha kernels or upgrading daily. I couldn't even find : out if this was being addressed at the time (see #5). : NFS sucks in general. It was known that Linux NFS has been bad for a long time. There are people making attempts to fix this. (Example: NFS file systems in kernel space, etc.) : 4) In general, Linux networking was unreliable with slow connections. : See reason #3 for why we didn't want to upgrade. The kernel would : get into some funky race conditions, and the load would shoot up : beyond 30. We would either have to reboot or leave the machine alone : for a couple of hours to sort itself out. : Never saw that.=) Only time I saw 30+ load average is when I would write a major tight loop when polling.=) What kernel? 1.0.X again..move to 1.2.x : 5) Linux does not seem to have an up-to-date kernel blurb page explaining : enhancements or apparent TODO lists. For example, where would I look : to see if they were fixing NFS performance? No apparent centralized WEB : page (like www.freebsd.org). Although the HOWTOs are nice, they seem : to be often out of date. : When 1.4.x is released the 1.3.x permate changes are released. I have seen a list of changes with the 1.3.x kernels. As for centralize WWW server...Correct.. wehave www.linux.org, www.linux.uk, etc. But most stuff endups at www.linux.org. : 6) Linux's chaotic development scares me. This is probably largely due : to the newsgroup exposure and all the OOPS I see posted on the odd : kernel revisions. : <shrug> If you maked BSD alpha/beta kernels public you would see the same results. Where as Linux as a community tends to helpout in debugging the alpha/beta kernels and can move to newer beta kernels if need be. (In my case..I'm using Appletalk stuff..So I orignally started with 1.2.x kernel + appletalk patches, but had to move to 1.3.37 (I ran this at home and it was stable enough.) to get a better supported Appletalk kernel protocal because it was causing minor problems on our net. Where in the BSD world, I would either have to patch it myself, or get my way into the "Developer's guild".=) Yes, Linux's method of kernel development is different, but you have to admint that 1.2.13 is rock stable...And I'm sure 2.0.lastX or 1.4.lastX will be rock stable. Does BSD release a major change per year for kernels and packages? Linux kernel has a major revision change every year. : 7) Kernel drivers frequently get to alpha stages, but seem to be poorly : supported after that. I've noticed that on a couple of occasions : that a driver gets created and the author takes a "sabbatical". With : FreeBSD, drivers that are submitted by more "seasoned" kernel hackers : continue to get support and bugfixes throughout its lifetime . I won't : point any fingers, but I have heard of some Linux hardware drivers : ported over to FreeBSD, fixed, and then ported back to FreeBSD :) : can't argue, but I don't know of any drivers besides ftape (which was REALLY bad to start with.=) that has ever not had an other programmer take over the work. : 8) One of the bigger things attracting us to FreeBSD was the fact that : ftp.cdrom.com runs it. Pretty damn impressive serving 400+ : simultaneous connections (and fast!). It's kind of humorous that : the Slackware repository is actually a FreeBSD box :) Now, if you : want to run a stable OS that gets plenty of hammering, why not follow : by example? :) In light of our Linux problems, FreeBSD looked like : something to give a whirl. : I'd like to try BSD some day, but I have been very happy with Linux. I'm move to RedHat 2.1 after 'living' with slackware since I stared, and after playing around (I'm too cheep to get the cdrom of it.=) I have it running (not talking via CSLIP yet..but soon.=) : In short, we were not interested in daily (or weekly) kernel upgrades. : We are not in a situation where we can take down a machine for repairs. Then just use the final 1.<evennumber> releases..No one is forcing you to run beta kernals. I personally do run the lastest newest version so I know what breaks really quickly so I can help Idenify problems with my combination of hardware. : We needed an OS that runs reliably between releases with reasonable : separation between major revisions. For us, that is FreeBSD 2.0.5. : Although I haven't installed Linux for a while, the installation was : much easier than Linux (we installed via ftp with FreeBSD w/o a hitch). : NFS installs with Slackware was like pulling teeth! : RedHat, Slackware, and Debian have all grown up alot...NFS is still pulling teath...But it was pulling teath for our SunOS machine also.=-) Personally if I had multiply Linux boxes I would use Samba for file transfers and such..Since it is really nice. : This is not to say Linux is bad. Linux is fine to use when the machine : does not need to serve mission critical apps. Linux will likely get : certain fancy features before other free OSs, and they would be interesting : to try out. This is probably why Linux is frequently used in the home by : people in single-node/single user mode. You obviously won't encounter : networking problems w/o any network! This just doesn't match our application. : Linux is likely going to mature over time and become very stable. BSD : didn't get where it is today without lots of time in hackers' hands! :) : <shrug> Networking has always been a breeze to install on the different networks I've been on...I have it integrated with Mac/win95 machines.. <shrug> It runs really nicely off my 386 hardware at work. Oh well....