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Path: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!nntp.coast.net!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!wetware!wsrcc.com!news.orst.edu!news.uidaho.edu!usenet From: "Faried Nawaz" <fn@uidaho.edu> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.unix.misc Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD Date: 07 Dec 1995 20:03:04 -0800 Organization: People's Front Against WWW Lines: 190 Sender: nawaz921@waldrog.cs.uidaho.edu Distribution: world Message-ID: <imwx888ao7.fsf@waldrog.cs.uidaho.edu> References: <489kuu$rbo@pelican.cs.ucla.edu> <49k0dd$pfg@nntp5.u.washington.edu> <49o2n2$t4e@daffy.anetsrvcs.uwrf.edu> <49osrd$ptg@times.tfs.com> <49pb5g$di8@agate.berkeley.edu> Reply-To: fn@uidaho.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: waldrog.cs.uidaho.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: September Gnus v0.15 Xref: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au comp.os.linux.advocacy:29808 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:10096 comp.unix.advocacy:11955 comp.unix.misc:19957 In article <49pb5g$di8@agate.berkeley.edu> nickkral@parker.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Nick Kralevich) writes: $ This is funny. Actually, this is a waste of time and resources. $ I've been following a thread in comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc. $ The title of the thread is "NetBSD camp reaction to OpenBSD?". $ It seems that some of the NetBSD people rejected a person named Theo $ De Raadt from the core development team, and that person went out and $ created another distribution called OpenBSD (http://www.openbsd.org/). Seems like it. $ So I agree with the person who called BSD a "Developer's Guild". $ It just doesn't seem that open to me when the developers of an $ operating system kick someone out of the development environment. I think you can't use the above case to back-up the "Developer's Guild" idea. You really know very little about the situation -- all you've read has been on the newsgroups, and there haven't been (m)any postings about it. I think "openness" has little to do with it. $ Included below are some articles that may be of interesting reading: $ $ | From: Todd C Miller <millert@cs.Colorado.EDU> $ | Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix. $ | + bsd.freebsd.misc $ | [1] Re: NetBSD camp reaction to OpenBSD? $ | Date: Sat Nov 25 09:44:30 PST 1995 $ | Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder $ | $ | Speaking simply as someone who watched all of the sillyness that $ | transpired on the NetBSD mailing lists during the Theo escapade, $ | I'm sorrow that the schism happened, but that's about it. $ | Theo has done some amazing work and I hope that the copyright $ | for OpenBSD is in the Berkeley style so that the other BSD's $ | can pick up some of his stuff. I'm sure that there will be $ | quite a few people upset about yaBSD (yet another BSD), but $ | I don't see healthy competition being a real problem as long $ | as both camps are free to incorporate the other's ideas and $ | code. Not surprisingly, this is how I felt about the NetBSD/FreBSD $ | split. $ | $ | - todd $ | -- $ | Todd C. Miller Sysadmin--University of Colorado Todd.Miller@cs.colorado.edu Did you know that most of initial OpenBSD code for a few platforms is/was straight NetBSD? Is that in any way indicative of a "closed" development environment? $ And another follow to this thread: $ $ $ | Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix. $ | + bsd.freebsd.misc $ | From: st@epcc.ed.ac.uk (Scott Telford) $ | [1] Re: NetBSD camp reaction to OpenBSD? $ | Organization: Edinburgh Parallel Computing Centre, University of Edinburgh, $ | + UK. $ | Date: Tue Nov 28 05:34:35 PST 1995 $ | $ | In article <498sl3$52h@ector.cs.purdue.edu>, David Moffett $ | (dpm@cs.purdue.edu) wrote: $ | > Would it be opening Pandoras Box for us non-list readers to get a one $ | > screen summary of what caused this split? Was it a people vs people or $ | > technical ideas vs technical ideas kind of problem? $ | > $ | > Please no flames, just a short summary. $ | $ | OpenBSD appears to be a result of Theo De Raadt's ejection from the $ | NetBSD core team, which, in short, was a people thing, not a technical $ | thing. $ | $ | -- $ | Scott Telford, Edinburgh Parallel Computing Centre, <s.telford@ed.ac.uk> $ | University of Edinburgh, Mayfield Rd, Edinburgh, EH9 UK.(+44 131 650 5978) $ | "Is it a virus, a drug, or a religion?" "What's difference?" (Snow Crash) Theo could still, after his "ejection", contribute code to the NetBSD project. Is that another example of "closed" development? $ As for the "openness" of FreeBSD development, I refer you (again) to the $ following threads from comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc: $ $ $ | Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix. $ | + bsd.freebsd.misc $ | From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer) $ | [1] Re: NetBSD camp reaction to OpenBSD? $ | Organization: BSD User Group Hamburg $ | $ | "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org> writes: $ | $ | >Just looking at http://www.openbsd.org this evening, and it looks like a $ | >significant NetBSD clone in many respects - at least most of the $ | >platforms would appear to be NetBSD "rebadges" for the time being. $ | $ | [...] $ | $ | Well, one thing that seems really more "open" in OpenBSD is public $ | readonly CVS access (as advertised, don't know if this is up for $ | now). $ | $ | I'd really like to see this for NetBSD/FreeBSD, too. As an example, it $ | would make it much easier to look at John Dyson's work on the VM $ | system without having to ask someone to check out all these changes. $ | $ | Martin $ | -- $ $ To which Jordan K. Hubbard replied: $ $ | From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org> $ | Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix. $ | + bsd.freebsd.misc $ | [1] Re: NetBSD camp reaction to OpenBSD? $ | Date: Wed Nov 29 19:27:19 PST 1995 $ | Organization: Walnut Creek CDROM $ | $ | Martin Cracauer wrote: $ | > ... $ | > I'd really like to see this for NetBSD/FreeBSD, too. As an example, it $ | > would make it much easier to look at John Dyson's work on the VM $ | > system without having to ask someone to check out all these changes. $ | $ | Let's ask the NetBSD Project: What do you say, guys? A year or so ago, $ | both groups shut down mutual read access for fears both real and $ | imagined. What's our situation today? Anyone over there having $ | seditious thoughts about tearing down the Berlin wall? I personally $ | would not mind at all. $ | -- $ | Jordan $ $ $ So far, there has been *NO* announcement of the opening of the CVS $ tree. Please read the freebsd-hackers mail archive. You can reach it from http://www.freebsd.org, click on 'Search'. The problem is not a lack of *willingness*, but that of *resources*. Once machine(s) are set up, there will be an announcement. Since no machines are currently set up for it, there have been no announcements. $ Summary: You have to be a member of the BSD core team to be able $ to see any real changes in the source code. Membership is restricted $ to a select group, and if your not in that group, tough luck. Your conclusions are incorrect. $ Even $ if your a good programmer, but other people in the group don't $ like you, you can get kicked out. Not exactly what I call "open" or $ a conductive development environment. I don't understand. If someone is seen to be hurting a project, shouldn't they be "removed"? Are you really saying people should be "carried" along? (Whether Theo was or wasn't isn't something I know. I'm just arguing a point.) $ Personally, I prefer Linux. $ $ Of course, all of this has nothing to do with the technical merits $ of the two operating systems. But then again, that's never stopped $ an advocacy group before. :) $ $ (in followups, please be sure to include CORRECT attribution lines. $ I don't want to be coming back later on and trying to claim $ that I did or didn't make certain statements). $ $ Take care, $ -- Nick Kralevich $ nickkral@cory.eecs.berkeley.edu $