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From: dillon@best.com (Matt Dillon)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc
Subject: Re: New Install / Observations & Gripes
Date: 9 Jan 1996 11:32:35 -0800
Organization: Best Internet Communications, Inc. (info@best.com)
Lines: 162
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4cufsj$blh@blob.best.net>
References: <DKup49.M1t@bnr.ca> <4cqk44$3gt@agate.berkeley.edu> <4cqogd$97e@blob.best.net> <4crefn$dtk@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: blob.best.net
:In article <4crefn$dtk@agate.berkeley.edu>,
:Jordan K. Hubbard <jkh@violet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
:>In article <4cqogd$97e@blob.best.net>, Matt Dillon <dillon@best.com> wrote:
:>> Since we are on the subject, I might as well pass on my praise and gripes
:>> re: installing the distribution.
:>
:>Thanks - any and all feedback is genuinely appreciated.
:>I think the next version of sysinstall that you'll see will
:>...
>
>> Problem #2: F12@#$@##$%#$@%$^^% @##@$ @#$#%^$#% Disk @$%$#$%^ Geometry.
>> The problem? First it complains that the disk geometry will not work
>> with dos. Fine, I'll change the geomtry... 'G'.. blah blah blah...
>> commit, exit sysinstall, re-enter. Second, it complains that the
>> disk geometry will not work with dos. In fact, it looks like the
>
>I'm not sure that our geometry-guessing code is going to get better
>anytime soon. Was DOS actually on this disk, or were you doing an all-disk
>install? It's really weird that you've had problems as all-encompassing
>as these since I've installed FreeBSD on dozens of SCSI systems with no
>problem at all! I'd like to know what's so different about our setups.
DOS wasn't actually on the disk, but I had been trying to use
the default DOS-compatible partitioning from sysinstall and it was
failing miserably (it was, after all, the default recommendation :-)).
But, as I said, once I told sysinstall to use the DOS-incompatible
partioning (i.e. make the whole disk FreeBSD, which it was anyway),
the geometry no longer mattered beyond making sure that / was < cyl 1024
(and I do appreciate the comment sysinstall displays telling one about
the effects of geometry).
:>> but the boot program would fail to boot from the FreeBSD partition
:>> I selected. I tried about 50 different combinations and the only
:>
:>Geometry again?
I think so. I'm just not going to install any more FreeBSD systems
with the default DOS-compatible partioning, it's a whole lot easier
to use the whole-disk-is-FreeBSD-and-forget-DOS-compatibility option.
It could also be related to the fact that it was likely installing
a boot sector on sd0 instead of sd1 and maybe got some references
mixed up. I dunno.
:>> Problem #4: sysinstall gets really confused on the VTY's if you
:>> run it manually from /stand. I mean REALLY confused... you have
:>
:>Yeah, I know. My attempt to deal with a console switching problem was
:>...
Oh, I had another idea: When you run sysinstall from multi-user, it
should completely lock out any chance of modifying any currently
mounted disks. I believe it also gets mount points confused when you
try to do an actual install from multi-user. But the latter point
is the more important.
:>> It would be nice if you could tell it to JUST install the 5-10 MB
:>>...
:>
:>This will be possible in the next rev, though in a slightly different
:>way. Every basic operation (reduced to whichever level of atomic structure
:>most makes sense for it) is now available as a directly callable
:>primitive, via the command line. If you want to enter the installer, ask
:>for a command prompt and then say:
:> mount -root
:> copy_self
:...
Ah, an expert mode... this looks good, though be sure it is documented
in sysinstall itself, I'd hate to have to remember the keywords. I
can deal with expert modes (and the shell prompt is a godsend, by the
way!)... it's those GUI's that cause problems :-) :-)
:>> don't, it often disconnects your working, running PPP link and asks
:>> for all that information again, requiring you to dial in and get it
:>> all working... again. I only had to do that half a dozen times :-(
:>
:>And the essential "flow" of configuration will also be different. Fall-back
:>on failure will not be so severe, and when you want to manually fall back
:>a given number of steps ("oops, I actually screwed that up 3 screens ago")
:>...
Heh. Sounds like you are designing something for the space program ...
:>> Problem #4: The minimal installation would finish creating a
:>> bootable, working root disk until multiple HOURS into the install.
:>
:>I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do a whole lot to speed it up over V.24
:>links :-)
Oh, I don't mind waiting, just as long as I can restart from where I left
off when something dies.
:>> * Have sysinstall not only warn you about disk geometries, but also
:>> give you a 'default' geometry that actually works with DOS and,
:>> especially, warn you if the root partition is unbootable due to
:>> being larger then cylinder 1024.
:>
:>It's just picking that `geometry that actually works' that seems to be so
:>damn hard. Care to have a look at /usr/src/release/libdisk for us? Perhaps
:>you can succeed where we failed.. :-) Apparently, if we had access to
:>the BIOS information it would be easier, but we don't currently have such
:>mechanisms in place.
Ach! I take it back I take it back! I realize it's hard. I'm not
particularly fond of DOS myself. I think the solution is to simply
not worry about DOS, but what you may want to do is carefully document
the problems so people don't tear their hair out trying to install
the thing. That coupled with being able to get a quicky root and
kernel installed on the hard disk that you can reboot into to test
without waiting too long would make it a whole lot nicer.
:>> be to make a fully single-user-mode bootable root disk. No /usr,
:>> just /, and just required programs, and then require that the
:>> machine be rebooted. The machine would reboot into sysinstall
:>> from the HD and you would continue your install. This minimal
:>> install would load up / with perhaps 5 MB of stuff and have
:>> most of the standard system programs such as ping, ps, rsh, rcp,
:>> tar, etc... i.e. all of /sbin and most of /bin.
:>
:>That would sort of mandate two boots instead of one (when it works,
:>it's really just one reboot and you're up). Hmmmm.. Ugh! Let me
:>think about it. There are pros and cons.
Well, it does mandate two boots, but keep in mind that most people
wind up rebooting half a dozen times anyway. Having to reboot twice,
and not have to deal with the floppy any more AND know that your
partioning / boot sector stuff is all working has phychological
benefits as well as time-saving benefits.
Ach! And yet another reason: sysinstall would be able to remember
your network configuration, allowing you to just hit OK in that
window after a reboot.
And yet another reason: Often you want to setup a disk (partioning,
making it bootable), but then completely reload the filesystems. The
two step process would allow you to do that.
:>> * Make sysinstall truely disk independant... I want to be able to load
:>> up sd1 with a fully working distribution so I can move the physical
:>> disk to another machine and boot from it. Right now, if the disk
:>> you are installing isn't sd0, you get screwed royally.
:>
:>Yes, that will be fixed - I promise! :-)
:>
:> Jordan
Heh. Thanks for your response Jorden. Sorry if it sounded a bit harsh.
oh, regarding your inode problem: Have you thought of building in
the list of devices and major/minor device numbers into sysinstall itself?
If you setup a floppy kernel with a ram disk, you could mount /dev as
a ram disk and simply mknod() the devices runtime. That way the devices
in /dev would not consume any space on the floppy.
-Matt
--
Matthew Dillon Engineering, BEST Internet Communications, Inc.
<dillon@best.net>
[always include a portion of the original email in any response!]