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Path: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au!olive!navmat.navy.gov.au!posgate!posgate.apana.org.au!posgate.acis.com.au!news.act.apana.org.au!warrane.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!munnari.OZ.AU!news.hawaii.edu!ames!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!usenet.hana.nm.kr!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.cais.net!primus.ac.net!news.serv.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.mathworks.com!fu-berlin.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!nordwest.pop.de!uniol!uni-erlangen.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!c4.hrz.uni-giessen.de!usenet From: chris.traxler@theo.physik.uni-giessen.de (Chris Traxler) Newsgroups: misc.misc,misc.forsale.computers.discussion,comp.os.os2.marketplace,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.win95.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.misc,comp.os.magic-cap,comp.os.lynx,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux,comp.os.386bsd.development,comp.os.386bsd.bugs Subject: Re: *** PLEASE TAKE THIS OS SURVEY *** Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 12:12:54 GMT Organization: University of Giessen, Germany Lines: 45 Message-ID: <4fnb9s$k3u@c4.hrz.uni-giessen.de> References: <Pine.D-G.3.91.960124225044.20914C-100000-100000@erc.cat.syr.edu> <4eu2n6$bvu@rubens.telebyte.nl> <4fflmt$jh3@c4.hrz.uni-giessen.de> <jdb-0902961555260001@dock.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: theorie126.physik.uni-giessen.de X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au misc.misc:29278 misc.forsale.computers.discussion:3014 comp.os.os2.marketplace:1991 comp.os.msdos.misc:48130 comp.os.ms-windows.win95.misc:101506 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.misc:90517 comp.os.mach:5033 comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:110166 comp.os.misc:4688 comp.os.magic-cap:1466 comp.os.lynx:1684 comp.os.linux.misc:85758 comp.os.386bsd.development:3347 comp.os.386bsd.bugs:3087 jdb@tiac.net (Jim Bailey) wrote: >In article <4fflmt$jh3@c4.hrz.uni-giessen.de>, >chris.traxler@theo.physik.uni-giessen.de (Chris Traxler) wrote: >-> * If a TASK or PROCESS crashes, it is your fault as the programmer. >-> * But if the whole SYSTEM crashes due to a faulty written program >-> started under non-supervisor (root) permission, it is ALWAYS a bug in >-> the operating system, as a serious OS supports full memory protection >-> and there should (in an idealized environment) be no way whatsoever to >-> make the system hang unless you are root and changing configurations. >This is silly. What about OS priviledged apps like drivers, monitors and >such? Those can be written by third parties. What if the driver crashes >because a non-priviledged application calling it did something really >odd? Sure you can blame the driver software for not being robust enough >but it isn't the OS that did it. And the reality is that drivers need to >be extremely efficient, guaranteeing that some API holes are going to >exist. There is no such thing as a perfectly memory protected system. It >can't be done in the real world. Jim - I agree with what you're saying, but my statement is correct again if you include drivers and such by definition in what you mean by an "OS" (what is an OS without drivers doing anyway?). In Linux, BTW, all drivers are inherent parts of the OS. The other OS we talked about (Win3.1, Win95, Mac OS) do not need any faulty driver to crash, they simply crash when you are running faulty programs, since they do not have ANY memory protection. Sure, there is no such thing as perfect memory protection, but there are some OS around which do not even attempt to protect the system from hanging when there is a faulty program running. As someone said earlier in this thread, some OS are merely "graphical shells". I like that expression. Kind regards, Chris ----- Chris Traxler, Inst.f.Theor.Physik, Heinrich-Buff-Ring 16, D-35392 Giessen