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Path: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.mira.net.au!Germany.EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!nntp.news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: pdg@primenet.com (Dave Gardner) Newsgroups: comp.emulators.announce,comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine,comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.announce,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce,comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.announce,comp.os.linux.answers,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.answers,news.answers Subject: WINE (WINdows Emulator) Frequently Asked Questions Followup-To: comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine Date: 10 Mar 1996 18:26:02 -0700 Organization: Primenet Lines: 656 Sender: root@primenet.com Approved: news-answers-request@MIT.EDU,linux-answers@news.ornl.gov Message-ID: <4hvvfa$log@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Summary: This posting contains a list of Frequently Asked Questions (and their answers) about Wine, the WINdows Emulator project. This should be read by anyone wishing to know more about the development of this programming project, which will allow users to run MS Windows binary programs under certain Unixes and Unix clones. X-Posted-By: pdg@usr5.primenet.com NNTP-Posting-Host: usr1.primenet.com Xref: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au comp.emulators.announce:107 comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine:3688 comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.announce:10 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce:153 comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.announce:111 comp.os.linux.answers:886 comp.windows.x.i386unix:19480 comp.answers:15542 news.answers:59793 Archive-name: windows-emulation/wine-faq Posting-Frequency: monthly Last-modified: 07 Feb 1996 23:45:00 PDT Version: 3.10 Wine (Windows Emulator) Frequently Asked Questions & Answers v. 3.10 -- March 1996 by P. David Gardner (pdg@primenet.com) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Table of Contents What's New Section 0: General Information Section 1: Overview Section 2: Program Compatibility Section 3: Hardware/Software Considerations Section 4: How to Find, Install, Configure & Run Wine Section 5: How to Get Help Section 6: How You Can Help Section 7: Who is Responsible for Wine? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What's New The following answers have changed since the last issue of this FAQ: QUESTION 4.1: Where can I get Wine? QUESTION 7.1: Who is responsible for writing and maintaining the Wine source code? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 0 General Information This is the monthly posting of the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) for the Wine development project. It contains both general and technical information about Wine: project status, what it is and what it does, how to obtain and configure and run it, and more. Please read this FAQ carefully before you post questions about Wine to Usenet to see if your question is already answered here first. NOTE: If you are reading this FAQ and it is March 31, 1996 or later, this document is out of date. Please get a new one from one of the sites mentioned below. Please note that since Wine is still alpha code, it may or may not work to varying degrees on your system. Also note that from release to release, programs may work and then not work, then work again. Neither the Wine developers nor the Wine FAQ author /maintainer can be held responsible for any damage that may be caused to your computer hardware, software or data by your obtaining, installing, configuring, operating and/or removing Wine. If you use Wine, you use it completely at your own risk. The Wine FAQ is posted monthly to these newsgroups: comp.emulators.announce comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.announce comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.announce comp.os.linux.answers comp.windows.x.i386unix comp.answers news.answers The Wine FAQ is reposted mid-month to the following newsgroup: comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine The plaintext version of the Wine FAQ is available by anonymous ftp from the following systems: ftp://ftp.primenet.com/users/p/pdg/Wine.FAQ ftp://tsx-11.mit.edu/pub/linux/ALPHA/Wine/Wine.FAQ ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group /comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine /WINE_(WINdows_Emulator)_Frequently_Asked_Questions ftp://aris.com/pub/linux/ALPHA/Wine/Wine.FAQ ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/ALPHA/wine/Wine.FAQ and quite likely most of the other sites around the globe that mirror the Wine distribution from the Wine project's main distribution site, tsx-11.mit.edu. The Wine FAQ is available on the World Wide Web (WWW), reachable with any web browser such as Mosaic or Netscape, or the ASCII browser lynx, at the following URL: http://www.primenet.com/~pdg/wine-faq.html If you have any technical questions about Wine, please post these to the newsgroup comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine. If you have any suggestions for corrections, changes, expansion or further clarification of this FAQ, please send them to the Wine FAQ author and maintainer listed in question 7.2. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 1 Overview QUESTION 1.1: What is Wine, and what is it supposed to do? Wine is both a program loader and an emulation library that will allow UNIX users to run MS Windows applications on an x86 hardware platform running under some UNIXes. The program loader will load and execute an MS Windows application binary, while the emulation library will take calls to MS Windows functions and translate these into calls to UNIX/X, so that equivalent functionality is achieved. MS Windows binaries will run directly; there will be no need for machine level emulation of program instructions. Sun has reported better performance with their version of WABI than is actually achieved under MS Windows, so theoretically the same result is possible under Wine. QUESTION 1.2: What does the word Wine stand for? The word Wine stands for one of two things: WINdows Emulator, or Wine Is Not an Emulator. Both are right. Use whichever one you like best. QUESTION 1.3: What is the current version of Wine? A new version of Wine is distributed about once a month. You will be able to keep up on all the latest releases by reading the newsgroup comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine, where new release announcements are made. When downloading Wine from your ftp site of choice (see question 4.1 for some of these choices), you can make sure you are getting the latest version by watching the version numbers in the distribution filename. For instance, the distribution released on June 20, 1994 was called Wine-940620.tar.gz. Patch files are also available. If you are current to the previous version, you can download and apply just the current patch file rather than the entire new distribution. The patch filenames follow the same conventions as the monthly distribution. QUESTION 1.4: When will Wine be ready for general distribution? Because Wine is being developed by volunteers, it is difficult to predict when it will be ready for general distribution. Between 90-98% of the functions used by MS Windows aplets, and 80-90% of the functions used by major programs, have been at least partially implemented at this time. However, the remaining 10% will likely take another 90% of the time, not including debugging. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 2 Program Compatibility QUESTION 2.1: Which MS Windows programs does Wine currently run? The newsgroup comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine contains posts that tell of successes, partial successes and failures to run certain MS Windows programs under Wine. Also, there are a few web sites that maintain lists of successes and failures in attempts to run MS Windows programs under Wine, and these are: http://dutifp.twi.tudelft.nl:8000/wine/ http://www.ifi.uio.no/~dash/wine/working-apps.html http://www.progsoc.uts.edu.au/~wildfire/ Please keep in mind that since Wine is still a developers'-only release, programs may 'break' and then run again from release to release. But be assured that at least most of the aplets distributed with MS Windows now run to a degree of success. For instance, Solitaire (SOL.EXE) runs just fine now, including menu selections, as long as you don't try to access the help menu. Other aplets work as well. Many folks are starting to report that major programs are beginning to work to varying degrees as well. But Windows colors can vary from system to system, depending on your video card and monitor, but it's been reported that colors are generally darker under X and Wine than under native DOS and MS Windows. Also, a number of public domain and shareware games programs found on the ftp site ftp.winsite.com can run under Wine, with varying degrees of success. One of these is Paintshop Pro. Some folks have reported that it is now possible, using dosemu, to run MS Windows 3.1 in standard mode and run major MS Windows software. Others report that standard mode doesn't work at all, but that enhanced mode does. Results are inconsistent and thus the results you get from trying dosemu to run MS Windows 3.1 in any mode will be equally inconsistent. Keep an eye on the newsgroup comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine for up-to-date reports of successes. QUESTION 2.2: Which MS Windows programs do you expect Wine never to be able to run at all, and for what reason(s)? Back when work on Wine was just getting started, it was said that any MS Windows program that requires a special enhanced mode device driver (VxD) that cannot be rewritten specifically for Wine, will not run under Wine. While this is quite likely still a true statement for the most part, there is preliminary VxD support being added to Wine at this time. QUESTION 2.3: Will MS Windows programs typically run faster or slower under UNIX and Wine than they do under MS-DOS and MS Windows? Will certain kinds of programs run slower or faster? Programs should typically run at about the same speed under Wine as they do under MS-DOS and MS Windows. QUESTION 2.4: Are there any advantages or disadvantages to running MS Windows applications under Wine that I should be aware of? As with OS/2, you will be running 16-bit MS Windows applications in a 32-bit operating system using emulation techniques, so you will have similar advantages and disadvantages. There will be crash protection. That is, each MS Windows application running under Wine will be running in its own X window and its own portion of reserved memory, so that if one MS Windows application crashes, it will not crash the other MS Windows or UNIX applications that you may have running at the same time. Also, MS Windows programs should run at about the same speed under Wine as they do under MS Windows. When Wine is finished, you will be able to run your favorite MS Windows applications in a UNIX environment. However, be aware that any application written for a 16-bit operating system will run much less efficiently than its 32-bit cousin, so if you find a 32-bit application that fits your needs, you will be much better off switching. QUESTION 2.5: Will Wine support MS Windows networked applications that use WINSOCK.DLL? Yes, Wine will support such applications. You will be able to run MS Windows applications such as Netscape and Mosaic, WS-FTP and TrumpTel and the like (though there are 32-bit native UNIX versions of most of these programs available now). QUESTION 2.6: I'm a software developer who wants to use UNIX to develop programs rather than MS-DOS, but I need to write MS-DOS and MS Windows programs as well. Will I be able to run my favorite MS-DOS and/or MS Windows compilers under Wine? Wine testers report that dosemu, the MS-DOS emulator for Linux, supports DPMI (DOS Protected Mode Interface). This means that folks can run MS Windows in standard mode under dosemu, and can also run (with varying degrees of success) Microsoft and Borland C++ compilers. However, at last report, Wine itself cannot run these compilers, nor is it able to run any MS Windows debuggers, and may not be able to for some time. Keep in mind that Wine is being designed to run existing MS Windows applications. A custom MS Windows program specifically written to be compatible with Wine may not work the same as when it is run under MS-DOS and MS Windows. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 3 Hardware/Software Considerations QUESTION 3.1: Under what hardware platform(s) and operating system(s) will Wine run? Wine is being developed specifically to run on the Intel x86 class of CPUs under certain UNIXes that run on the x86 platform. UNIXes currently being tested for Wine compatibility include Linux, NetBSD, FreeBSD and Unixware. The Wine development team hopes to attract the interest of other commercial UNIX and UNIX clone vendors as well. QUESTION 3.2: What minimum CPU must I have in my computer to be able to run Wine and MS Windows applications smoothly? Wine won't run on any ix86 CPU less than an 80386. It is known to also work in the 80486 and Pentium CPUs. Beyond that, the basic test is, if you can run X11 now, you should be able to run Wine and MS Windows applications under it. As always, the faster your CPU, the better. Having a math coprocessor is unimportant. However, having a graphics accelerated video card supported by X will help greatly. QUESTION 3.3: How much disk space will the Wine source code and binaries take on my hard drive? It is anticipated that when Wine is completed, you will need approximately 6-8 megabytes of hard drive space to store and compile the source code. QUESTION 3.4: How much RAM do I need to have on my UNIX system to be able to run Wine and MS Windows applications smoothly? If you can run X smoothly on your UNIX system now, you should be able to run Wine and MS Windows applications just fine too. A Wine workstation should realistically have at least 8 megabytes of RAM and a 12 megabyte swap partition. More is better, of course. QUESTION 3.5: I have a Drivespaced, Doublespaced or Stackered MS-DOS partition. Can Wine run MS Windows binaries located in such a partition? Only if the operating system supports mounting those types of drives. Currently, NetBSD and FreeBSD do not. There is a new Linux filesystem driver that will allow read/write access through Doublespaced *and* Drivespace 1.0 drives. More specifically, it supports mounting MS-DOS 6.0 and 6.2 Doublespaced, MS-DOS 6.22 Drivespaced, and Win95 Doublespaced compressed partitions (read and write access, but write access is *slow*). It can be found at: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Filesystems/dosfs /dmsdosfs-0.5.8.tgz QUESTION 3.6: Do I need to have a MS-DOS partition on my system to use Wine? Does MS Windows need to be loaded into that partition in order to run MS Windows programs under Wine? You do not need MS-DOS or MS Windows to install, configure and run Wine. However, Wine has to be able to 'see' an MS Windows binary if it is to run it. Some folks have successfully installed and run some small programs in their UNIX filesystem without having an MS-DOS partition or MS Windows. However, not all programs will work this way yet. Some programs' installation programs want to distribute some of the package's files into the /windows and /windows/system directories in order to run, and unless these exist on your system, those programs will not install correctly and probably will not run right or run at all. If you have a MS-DOS partition with MS Windows installed in it, make sure that your UNIX system can 'see' this partition (check your /etc/fstab file or mount the partition manually) so that Wine can run the MS Windows binaries located in the MS-DOS partition. When it is finished, Wine will not require that you have a MS-DOS partition on your system at all, meaning that you will not need to have MS Windows installed either. Wine programmers will provide an application setup program to allow you to install your MS Windows programs straight from your distribution diskettes into your UNIX filesystem, or from within your UNIX filesystem if you ftp an MS Windows program over the Internet. QUESTION 3.7: If Wine completely replaces MS Windows, will it duplicate all of the functions of MS Windows? Most of them, yes. However, some applications and aplets that come with MS Windows, such as File Manager and Calculator, can be considered by some to be redundant, since 32-bit UNIX programs that duplicate these aplet's functions already exist. QUESTION 3.8: Will I be able to install MS Windows applications in any UNIX filesystem? Wine is written to be filesystem independent, so MS Windows applications will install and run under any filesystem supported by your brand of UNIX. QUESTION 3.9: Will Wine run only under X, or can it run in character mode? Being a GUI (graphical user interface), MS Windows does not have a character mode, so there will be no character mode for Wine. So yes, you must run Wine under X. QUESTION 3.10: Will Wine run under any X window manager? Wine is window manager independent, so the X window manager you choose to run has no bearing on your ability to run MS Windows programs under Wine. Wine uses standard X libraries, so no additional ones are needed. QUESTION 3.11: Will 32-bit Windows 95 or Win NT applications run under Wine? Wine developers have already incorporated some Win32 code into Wine, and improvements appear with every new release of Wine. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 4 How to Find, Install, Configure & Run Wine QUESTION 4.1: Where can I get Wine? Wine can now be found on quite a few systems throughout the Internet. Here is an incomplete list of some of the systems where you will find it: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/ALPHA/wine/Wine-960302.tar.gz ftp://tsx-11.mit.edu/pub/linux/ALPHA/Wine/development/Wine-960302.tar.gz ftp://ftp.infomagic.com/pub/mirrors/linux/wine/development/Wine-960302.tar.gz ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/OS/Linux/BETA/Wine/development/Wine-960302.tar.gz ftp://aris.com/pub/linux/ALPHA/Wine/development/Wine-960302.tar.gz It should also be available from any site that mirrors tsx-11 or sunsite. Here's what's new with the latest release (release 960302): - Program manager clone using Winelib. - Support for Esperanto language. - Some scrollbar fixes. - Edit control improvements. - Lots of bug fixes. Some of these ftp sites may archive previous versions of Wine as well as the current one. To determine which is the latest one, look at the distribution filename, which will take the form: Wine-[yymmdd].tar.gz Simply replace [yymmdd] in the distribution filename with the numbers for year, month and date respectively. The latest one is the one to get. Patch files are also available, so you don't have to download, install and configure the entire distribution each week if you are current to the previous release. Patch file release names follow the same numbering convention as do the general releases, and take the form: Wine-[yymmdd].diff.gz Patch files are available from the following sites: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/ALPHA/wine/Wine-960302.diff.gz ftp://tsx-11.mit.edu/pub/linux/ALPHA/Wine/development/Wine-960302.diff.gz ftp://ftp.infomagic.com/pub/mirrors/linux/wine/development/Wine-960302.diff.gz ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/OS/Linux/BETA/Wine/development/Wine-960302.diff.gz Note that any mirror of tsx-11 will likely carry the Wine distribution and diff files, but may not be listed here in this FAQ. If you are mirroring the Wine distribution from the tsx-11 site and wish to be listed here in this FAQ, please send email to the FAQ author/maintainer listed in question 7.2. QUESTION 4.2: If I do not have an Internet account, how can I get Wine? Some CD-ROM archives of Internet sites, notably those from Walnut Creek that archive ftp.cdrom.com and sunsite.unc.edu, do include some versions of Wine on their CD releases. However, the age of these distributions should always be questioned, as the 'snapshot' of the ftp site may have been taken anywhere from 1-4 months (or more) prior to the CD's pressing date. Your best bet to get the very latest distribution of Wine, if you do not have your own Internet account, is to find a friend who does have an Internet account and have him/her ftp the necessary files for you. If you have an email account on a BBS that can reach the Internet through a gateway, you may be able to use 'email ftp' to get the Wine release sent to you; check with your BBS system operator for details. If you are running a BBS that is not connected to the Internet but does offer the Wine distribution for download, and would like to be listed in this FAQ, please forward such information to the FAQ author/maintainer as listed in question 7.2. QUESTION 4.3: How do I install Wine on my hard drive? Just un-gzip and un-tar the file, and follow the instructions contained in the README file that will be located in the base Wine directory. QUESTION 4.4: How do I compile the Wine distribution source code? QUESTION 4.5: How do I configure Wine to run on my system? All of the directions to perform these two steps are located in the README file that will be located in the base Wine directory after you ungzip and untar the distribution file. QUESTION 4.6: How do I run an MS Windows program under Wine? Assuming you are running X already, call up an xterm window. Then, at the shell prompt, type: wine [/path/progname] Another X window will pop up on top of the shell window and the binary should begin to execute. Let's assume that you want to run MS Windows Solitaire. Under MS-DOS, you had previously installed MS Windows on your C: drive under the subdirectory /WINDOWS. Under UNIX, you have mounted the C: drive under /dos/c. To run MS Windows Solitaire, you would type: wine /dos/c/windows/sol.exe QUESTION 4.7: I have installed and configured Wine, but Wine cannot find MS Windows on my drive. Where did I go wrong? First, make sure you have mounted your MS-DOS partition into your UNIX filesystem, either by putting the entry into /etc/fstab, or by manually mounting it. Remember too that unless your version of *NIX can see through it, or you are running a utility that can see through it, your MS-DOS partition must not be located on a Drivespaced, Doublespaced or Stackered partition, as neither Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD or Wine can currently 'see' files located in these compressed DOS partitions. Next, check your path statements in the 'wine.conf' file. No capital letters may be used in paths, as they are automatically converted to lowercase. QUESTION 4.8: I think I've found a bug. How do I report this bug to the Wine programming team? Bug reports should be posted to the following newsgroup: comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine QUESTION 4.9: I was able to get various MS Windows programs to run, but their menus do not work. What is wrong? Wine is not complete at this time, so the menus may not work. They will in time as more of the MS Windows API calls are included in Wine. QUESTION 4.10: I have run various MS Windows programs but since the program menus do not work, how can I exit these programs? Kill the shell window that you called up to run your MS Windows program, and the X window that appeared with the program will be killed too. QUESTION 4.11: How do I remove Wine from my computer? All you have to do is to type: rm -fR [/path/]Wine* Make sure you specify the exact path when using the powerful 'rm -fR' command. If you are afraid you might delete something important, or might otherwise delete other files within your filesystem, change into each Wine subdirectory singly and delete the files found there manually, one file or directory at a time. Neither the Wine programmers nor the Wine FAQ author/maintainer can be held responsible for your deleting any files in your filesystem. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 5 How to Get Help QUESTION 5.1: Is there a Usenet newsgroup for Wine? Yes, and it's called: comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine The newsgroup's charter states that it will consist of announcements and discussion about Wine. The newsgroup serves as a place for developers to discuss Wine, and for minor announcements for the general public. Major announcements will be crossposted to other appropriate groups, such as the newsgroups comp.os.linux.announce, comp.windows.x.announce and comp.emulators.announce. If your Usenet site does not carry this newsgroup, please urge your sysadmin and/or uplink to add it. QUESTION 5.2: Is there a gopher site for Wine? To the best of my knowledge at the time of this writing, no. If you are installing or maintain a Gopher site pertaining to Wine, please contact the FAQ author/maintainer as noted in question 7.2 for inclusion in the next edition of the Wine FAQ. QUESTION 5.3: Is there a WWW site for Wine? Here are the URLs for a few sites reachable with your favorite web browser: http://www.primenet.com/~pdg/wine-faq.html http://www.thepoint.com/unix/emulate/wine/index.html http://daedalus.dra.hmg.gb/gale/wine/wine.html http://www.ifi.uio.no/~dash/wine/index.html If you are installing or maintain a WWW page pertaining to Wine, please inform the FAQ author/maintainer as detailed in 7.2 for inclusion in the next edition of the Wine FAQ. QUESTION 5.4: Is there a mailing list for Wine? There is a seldom-used developers-only mailing list, whose contents are planned to be ported into comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine. If you are a Wine developer, or want to become one, you are welcome to join the list. Please leave a message on comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine expressing your interest. Those with a general interest in Wine should participate in the newsgroup. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 6 How You Can Help QUESTION 6.1: How can I help contribute to the Wine project, and in what way(s)? You can contribute programming skills, or monetary or equipment donations, to aid the Wine developers in reaching their goal. To find out who, what, where, when and why, please post your desire to contribute to the following newsgroup: comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine QUESTION 6.2: I want to help beta test Wine. How can I do this? Beta testers are currently not needed, as Wine is still Alpha code at this time. However, anyone is welcome to download the latest version and try it out at any time. QUESTION 6.3: I have written some code that I would like to submit to the Wine project. How do I go about doing this? Send your weekly code contributions to the following mail alias: wine-new@amscons.com You should still verify that your code was included in the subsequent release of Wine, as project managers cannot guarantee that the mail server will not suffer some computer failure that will cause loss of your message and code after it is received. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 7 Who is Responsible for Wine? QUESTION 7.1: Who is responsible for writing and maintaining the Wine source code? Wine is available thanks to the work of Bob Amstadt, Dag Asheim, Martin Ayotte, Ross Biro, Erik Bos, Fons Botman, John Brezak, Andrew Bulhak, John Burton, Paul Falstad, Olaf Flebbe, Peter Galbavy, Ramon Garcia, Hans de Graaff, Charles M. Hannum, Cameron Heide, Jochen Hoenicke, Jeffrey Hsu, Miguel de Icaza, Alexandre Julliard, Jon Konrath, Scott A. Laird, Martin von Loewis, Kenneth MacDonald, Peter MacDonald, William Magro, Marcus Meissner, Graham Menhennitt, David Metcalfe, Michael Patra, John Richardson, Johannes Ruscheinski, Thomas Sandford, Constantine Sapuntzakis, Daniel Schepler, Bernd Schmidt, Yngvi Sigurjonsson, Rick Sladkey, William Smith, Erik Svendsen, Goran Thyni, Jimmy Tirtawangsa, Jon Tombs, Linus Torvalds, Gregory Trubetskoy, Michael Veksler, Morten Welinder, Jan Willamowius, Carl Williams, Karl Guenter Wuensch, Eric Youngdale, and James Youngman. QUESTION 7.2: Who is responsible for writing and maintaining the Wine FAQ? The FAQ was written and is being maintained by Dave Gardner (pdg@primenet.com). Please do not send technical questions about the Wine project to the FAQ maintainer, but rather post them to the newsgroup. QUESTION 7.3: Who are the folks and organizations who have contributed money or equipment to the Wine project? People and organizations who have given generous contributions of money and equipment include David L. Harper, Bob Hepple, Mark A. Horton, Kevin P. Lawton, the Syntropy Institute, and James Woulfe. -- Dave Gardner pdg@primenet.com http://www.primenet.com/~pdg/