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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc
Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux
Date: 6 Apr 1996 04:49:45 GMT
Organization: Utah Valley State College, Orem, Utah
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <4k4t59$2og@park.uvsc.edu>
References: <4issad$h1o@nadine.teleport.com> <4jejjt$cdb@park.uvsc.edu> <315E0F1A.4E3FB53D@lucon.org> <Pine.LNX.3.91.960401105810.31921A-100000@gallup.cia-g.com> <4jso8v$n5i@dyson.iquest.net> <31642098.75AB4317@gnu.ai.mit.edu> <4k2cvc$j8e@park.uvsc.edu> <31657509.5E45C160@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hecate.artisoft.com
"H.J. Lu" <hjl@gnu.ai.mit.edu> wrote:
] Terry Lambert wrote:
]
] > ] That means some ELF bugs won't be found/fixed anytime soon.
] >
] > Correct me if I'm wrong, but Solaris and SVR4 both use ELF...
] > why won't the problems be debugged there insetad of FreeBSD
] > (or Linux, for that matter)?
]
] Why Solaris and SVR4 when the ELF tools work ok there? As I said,
] at present, Linux is the only x86 platform where all aspects
] of the GNU ELF tools are tested. I hope FreeBSD can join us
] for a better ELF. We have a few items on our ELF wish list. I
] was hoping Linux/FreeBSD could make a better ELF.
Because Solaris and SVR4 don't come with developement environments.
ELF is a fixed format; specifically, without making myself
incompatible (otherwise SEF will argue the point ;-)), I can't
really distinguish one ELF binary from another for a given
processor... and I need to, since ELF does not mandate
processor ABI for call gate/trap, signal stack, program stack,
thread stack, etc., etc.
] > In other words, why is it necessary for FreeBSD to switch over
] > to ELF? "To find ELF bugs" is a silly rationale, even if
] > FreeBSD were the only source of feedback...
]
] I have been flamed on that by people like you from
] the Linux camp :-(. Someone has to do it. If not for Linux,
] your FreeBSD/ELF tools may not like what you have today.
] I thought FreeBSD might be fun. It seems that I was wrong :-(.
Don't misinterpret me. I think ELF is better than a.out. I
*don't* think it's the end-all, be-all file format. I think
BSD will need ELF (or its successor, if the ELF format problems
ever get fixed) to implement all sorts of technologies that I
*personally* advocate.
But the flaws in ELF (not just the GNU tools implementation;
the format itself is flawed in several fundamental ways) mean
that there is no reason to switch over immediately, unless you
want "ELF for the sake of ELF".
I buy into the idea of "ELF for the sake of enabling technology",
but I'm not enough of a compiler geek for "ELF for the sake of
ELF". I'm an OS and File System geek. 8-).
] > I don't disagree that there *can be* long term benefits to ELF,
] > only that there is any immediate benefit, other than "it is new,
] > we must flock to it in a zombie-like stupor".
]
] Assume you have to switch to ELF, why not now? It will make
] commercial software vendors easier to write softwares for
] you.
I want to see if "better than ELF" comes out between now and
when I need "something like ELF", for one.
I think the only thing a common ABI buys without standards
compliance is vendors porting fewer times, the binaries
running on more systems, but the vendors not offering any
commercial support for anything but the porting host.
This is a bad thing -- I'd like to have the ABI ducks in a
row before making it attractive for vendors to do a single
release.
] > You can't claim superiority unless you can demonstrate actively
] > available features which would not be available otherwise. For
] > Linux, it's BSD-style shared libraries and LGPL relink clause
] > workaround. For BSD, which has BSD-style shared libraries --
] > hence the name, and doesn't use LGPLed libraries (and hence
] > doesn't suffer the relink clause problems over major revision
] > number changes), you have *not* demonstrated anything beyond
] > "Little. Yellow. Different. Better" (the same reasons we
] > should all buy Advil instead of Tylenol), and "Better" is still
] > up in the air.
]
] Ask your FreeBSD/ELF gurus for why ELF is better than a.out
] and what it can do for you and a.out cannot.
I *am* one of these guys (at least, I'm one of the loudest ELF
advocates on the FreeBSD lists). I want kernel paging, for
which I need a new format. I want the software fix for the
broken LGPL relink clause re: shared libraries. I want the
compiler work to go into supporting more platforms instead of
more file formats.
And I am reluctant to say "ELF, now!" because of the flaws in
cross-ABI support and the marketing realities for free OS's.
Terry Lambert
terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.