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Path: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.rmit.EDU.AU!news.unimelb.EDU.AU!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!newsfeed.ksu.ksu.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!world!mv!news.missouri.edu!vortex.cc.missouri.edu!rhys From: rhys@vortex.cc.missouri.edu (Justin "Rhys Thuryn" McNutt) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc,comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Historic Opportunity facing Free Unix (was Re: The Lai/Baker paper, benchmarks, and the world of free UNIX) Followup-To: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc,comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy Date: 19 Apr 1996 19:06:11 GMT Organization: University of Missouri - Columbia Lines: 243 Message-ID: <4l8o73$i28@news.missouri.edu> References: <4ki055$60l@Radon.Stanford.EDU> <DpsKyx.1Jo@catzen.gun.de> <tporczykDptpAL.8uG@netcom.com> <4l0fv9$1bfs@news.missouri.edu> <4l2u61$fdg@solaria.cc.gatech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: vortex.cc.missouri.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au comp.os.linux.development.system:21583 comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc:638 comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc:3258 comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc:3087 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:17507 comp.os.linux.advocacy:45948 Byron A Jeff (byron@cc.gatech.edu) wrote: : - Can I transport information from one application to the other a-la : the clipboard? : Note it's all about applications with the genre of user, not systems or : performance. I agree. I left in the clipboard reference because the others were all technically just apps that can be written. How, though, to implement a clipboard as powerful as the one in Windows or the MacOS? At what level does it exist? Is it in user space or the kernel? I don't know how to tackle that one... : 2) Non-techie have much more a sense of community than we do. They tend to use : what everyone else uses because they know that someone nearby understand what : they are trying to accomplish. With most of us it's a nicety because we'll : read a doc or dig a bit. But applications users just want it to work and to have : someone to talk to when it doesn't. That's why Microsoft can get away with : burying the inner workings under layers and layers of GUI. The typical user : doesn't care how it gets done, they just want it to work. : That's why mindshare is so important, because Jane will switch when she sees : that she can do everything she needs and Joe in the next cube has the : same software. I agree here as well. I see it every day. : It's not that easy yet. Don't deal with the install, it's a technical issue : that isn't the least bit important. Stop a minute and think about all : the hoops a typical Windows user will jump through to set up stuff. : As much as you think that it's all "click and install" the software and : hardware conflicts on a typical Windows box are phenominal. And users : struggle through it every day. Put that way, I'll concede the point, but I'd still like to see the install go as smoothly as the Mac's install does, *WITH* the option to do it the complex way if you want (for those "real users" like us). It would make people less reluctant to at least try it. "It's so easy! Just take a look at it! All you have to do is hit enter here, answer a couple of questions, and let it run!" : The real issue is: Will it do the jobs I need it to do? Does it have the : applications I need to run? Is there someone knowledeable nearby that can : help me? : Answer those and you're in business. I agree. That's what I get asked a lot. For starters, Mathematica is available for Linux, and will continue to be available for Linux (I checked today, 'cause we might be using it large-scale here on campus). WordPerfect is supposed to be available, although I've never *seen* it. Is it any good? Also, is it XQuad that will read Excel spreadsheets? More below. : -Now we get to the harder part. Put some good programs in the WorkSpace : -that people will want to use. <sigh> : AhA! you are paying attention. :) : - : -I believe that TeX is the way to go, but it has one big drawback. : Nope. It's not. It isn't Word 6 or a near clone. Nothing else will do. : Period. End of discussion. As long as it can read and write Word 6 documents, it'll be fine, but my word processor of choice would default to TeX. It's much more partable. If your lusers want Word, they can have it. : Look I've been in shops where not only folk wouldn't consider changing : to WordPerfect or somesuch, they wouldn't even consider different versions : of Word! It had to be (like a mantra) "Word 6 for Windows" So just make it read Word docs. Lots of word processors can import docs from other apps. : Thisa long with Excel, PowerPoint, Corel Draw, Photoshop, and access is : the set of killer apps. The application has to either be the actual : application, or a close clone. It has to work with the file formats : of the real applications (import and export) and has to have damn near : the same look and feel. Tough job there mate. I agree. I'm not quite sure how to handle this, although if MS ever released Linux ports of Office, that would be great (in the pro-Linux sense. I'm still very anti-M$). : -As far : -as I know, it doesn't have a widely-available, easily-configured, WYSIWYG : -interface. : LyX is coming on. You should take a look at it. Near WYSIWYG, menu interface, : point and click configureability. An excellent tool. Okay, where is it? : Not the right tool unfortunately. All you have to get is one "So how do I : edit the Word 6 document I got in an attachment?" and it's all over. Since : the tool doesn't do that, it's worth less than shit to the ex-windows : user. Can we get WINE working well enough (ever, ever) to run MS Word? Also, if people are that die-hard over their apps, they should switch OSs. However, I don't think that the majority of users are *that* obsessive about it. Besides, you only have to convince the boss. :) : - People like MS Word, Windows Write, Ami Pro, etc. because : -they can *see* what their document is going to look like before they : -print it out. What does the doc actually look like in TeX? Who cares? : -Ever look at the inside of an MS Word doc? Pure rubbish. They can't : -even keep things consistent from version to version. TeX is portable and : -user-editable in a pinch. TeX -> PS is child's play, and just about any : -printer can print PS. : All true. But it isn't Word. It isn't Word. It isn't Word! (I should get : to go home now that I've said it three times! ;-) If it looks like Word and can read and write Word docs, people will deal with it. : BTW I don't use Word. On occasion I've used WordPad and I find it quite : up to the task (except for a lack of page breaks). A wordpad clone : would be quite enough. I haven't even played with WordPad very much. Actually, I like Write the best. It just needs a couple of features (like spell check) to make me happy. Word is too big. : -Given a WYSIWYG interface, and perhaps the ability to read other popular : -documents, a TeX-based word processor could just eat up the market. : Not perhaps, the ability to edit word documents is an absolute must. Okay! Granted! Fine! It has to read Word docs! It has to look like Word! Happy?!?!?! :) : What I can't figure out is why no one has bothered to figure out the format : for Word 6. I mean just use Word or Wordpad to generate an empty document : and examine the format. Then add some text and see how it changes. Is it : encrypted or something? : It's so important that someone needs to step up and do it. A Word 6 to : Lyx converter would be just the ticket. I agree completely and wholeheartedly. : -Given a decent word processor, and an installation process that will let : -novice users get to that word processor with the least hassle, and you : -will have given Unix a chance at the PC. : Agreed with the caveat that the processor has to be Word compatible. : -Just for motivation, I don't want to hear any, "But it's too HARD!" : -crap. Look at the Linux kernel. *THAT*, ladies and gentlemen, *WAS* the : -hard part. Are you telling me that no one out there can write a *WORD : -PROCESSOR*? Come on... The way I see it, the hard part will be getting : -X Windows up and running with only the Windiot user to rely on. : So the same as everyone else just like you said, 640x480x16 VGA mode until : the user can provide some paramemters. Also SuperProbe can be helpful in : automagically determining what kind of video card is available. : -It can be done. Someone (I nominate myself, although I *will* need help) : -just needs to do it. It doesn't even matter if the programs and scripts : -underneath are slow, obnoxious, not very portable, etc. If they *WORK*, : -we can fix them in our spare time. Linux was *written* in spare time. : -But if it doesn't exist at all, no one will use it. : Agreed. I too do not have the time to do it, but I'll shout the need for it. Hell, I'll help, if you tell me what you want me to do. I'm not much of a C programmer, but I learn fast, and I'll work the hours to help out, but I don't know what needs to be done. : -Feedback from novice users will be important. I work at a University : -*full* of feedback. If someone can help me work on this, I have : -supervisors who have already let me install Linux in our computer labs, : -and would be willing to help me make it more usable. I have students who : -want things idiot-proof. Talk about beta-testing! :) If the kids here : -can use it, anyone can. : - : -To recap: I have stated what needs to be done. Although it is : -irrelevant if no one is willing to do it, I have also suggested ways in : -which it might be done. I have offered to help. Now, if Linux and/or : -FreeBSD doesn't start becoming one of the most popular operating systems : -for the desktop PC, it's because no one tried. It won't happen : -overnight, but it won't happen at all if we don't start working on it : -*right* *now*. : - : -: As I said originally, the only thing that can sell UNIX to desktops : -: (besides specialized uses) is applications - common productivity : -: applications, priced *reasonably*. Superiority or inferiority of OS is : -: irrelevant. : - : -Exactly. Get it installed, give 'em a word processor. Other apps? One : -thing at a time. We'll get to it, but first things first. Let's not : -overwhelm ourselves here. : - : -: Example from my own desktop: I use Linux and FreeBSD at home, SunOS at : -: work, but when I sit down to write courseware (part of my job), I plug : -: in hard drive with Windows and MS Office. Why? Try to find a package : -: for UNIX that contains easily mergeable Word Processing, Presentation : - ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ : -: and Spreadsheet that a common mortal can afford. Show me *one*. And : -: let's not talk about TeX. If I told the rest of the team that I will : -: submit my work in TeX, they would die laughing. No one has the time to : -: play with that kind of stuff anymore. : - : -Bingo. Easily mergable? TeX or PS. No problem. So what if they die : -laughing? Does it work? Who is playing? TeX is good. The format in : -which most word processors save their documents is proprietary. It even : -changes from version to version. If someone were to write a word : -processor that used TeX, that problem would disappear. Documents would : -cease to be "MS Word 6.0" or "MS Word 5.0" or "WriteNow! 4.0" documents : -and would become "a text document". Want graphics? Use PS. : - : -That way, when you release updates for this fictional word processor, you : -can add features without having to ruin your backward compatibility all : -the time. You can work on the *program* instead of playing around with : -the *output* all the time. : - : -C'mon, you all. Let's just do it. The only thing standing in our way is : -the willingness to do it. : OK my proposal: : - Take a good long look at LyX. It's the LaTeX WYSIWYG WP app you want. : - Figure out how to read/write/view/print/edit Word 6.0 documents. : Leave the install alone for now. It's low priority. Okay, agreed. Anyone want to help me with this? -------- If you can lead it to water and force it to drink, it isn't a horse. Got a Linux problem? Or can you help others solve them? Visit the Linux Common Problems page at http://vortex.cc.missouri.edu/~rhys/linux.html rhys@vortex.cc.missouri.edu