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Path: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.rmit.EDU.AU!news.unimelb.EDU.AU!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!paladin.american.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newshub.csu.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!cmcl2!news.nyu.edu!usenet From: fox@graphics.cs.nyu.edu (David Fox) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc,comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Historic Opportunity facing Free Unix (was Re: The Lai/Baker paper, benchmarks, and the world of free UNIX) Date: 22 Apr 1996 07:59:20 -0400 Organization: NYU Media Research Lab. Lines: 45 Sender: fox@graphics.cs.nyu.edu Message-ID: <y5aspdwo4fb.fsf@graphics.cs.nyu.edu> References: <NELSON.96Apr15010553@ns.crynwr.com> <3175DBD4.167EB0E7@FreeBSD.org> <4l5f31$ijv@solaria.cc.gatech.edu> <3176D081.794BDF32@FreeBSD.org> <4la318$ah3@sidhe.memra.com> <31794DB6.7DE974DF@lambert.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: graphics.cs.nyu.edu In-reply-to: Terry Lambert's message of Sat, 20 Apr 1996 13:48:54 -0700 Xref: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au comp.os.linux.development.system:21781 comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc:692 comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc:3324 comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc:3168 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:17682 comp.os.linux.advocacy:46280 In article <31794DB6.7DE974DF@lambert.org> Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org> writes: ] Michael Dillon wrote: ] ] The fact is that the successful collaborative software ] ] development projects up to now have been mostly systems ] ] level stuff like *BSD, Linux, X, wxWindows and so on. If ] ] we can collect a core team of people who are willing ] ] to manage an *APPLICATIONS* development project using the ] ] same collaborative techniques, then we can tap into the ] ] skills of people who are reasonably good programmers but ] ] don't have the mindset to dig into SCSI driver race ] ] conditions and VM paging systems etc... ] ] ] ] These really are two separate groups of people so I don't ] ] think it would have any negative effects on the *BSD or ] ] Linux projects. ] ] In practice, we reaaly have two groups of people: those who ] burn their free time playing with computers and those who ] don't. ] ] I'd argue that the people you are talking about belong to ] the second group -- they aren't willing to cook a bunch of ] Saturdays on building "Word for X windows". ] ] The people in the first group quickly become systems level ] people. They tend to be into it for the challenge, and ] finding SCSI driver race conditions (per your example) is ] a heck of a lot more challenging than getting the cursor ] to the right screen location. As a systems person who is struggling to become an applications person, I must strenuously disagree. "Getting the cursor to the right screen location" isn't less challenging, its just a very different sort of challenge. Finding a SCSI driver race condition is a well delineated, unambigouous task, you know exactly when you've done it. Much of applications work tends to involve aesthetic judgement, which is something that puts off a lot of people in the systems crowd, including me. The hitch is, to do it well also requires the skills that are required to do good systems work. The problem we're having with applications is that it is done best by people who fall into the intersection of the two groups, and that's hardly any group at all. -- David Fox http://found.cs.nyu.edu/fox xoF divaD NYU Media Research Lab baL hcraeseR aideM UYN