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Path: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.cs.su.oz.au!inferno.mpx.com.au!goliath.apana.org.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!solace!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!felix.junction.net!not-for-mail From: michael@memra.com (Michael Dillon) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc,comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Historic Opportunity facing Free Unix (was Re: The Lai/Baker paper, benchmarks, and the world of free UNIX) Date: 24 Apr 1996 21:53:52 -0700 Organization: Memra Software Inc. - Internet consulting - http://www.memra.com Lines: 55 Message-ID: <4ln0h0$3fp@sidhe.memra.com> References: <tporczykDpqKHL.7vG@netcom.com> <4ksupc$a1j@cnn.nas.nasa.gov> <4l4pq5$h3s@sidhe.memra.com> <317C7EDF.144DC965@gramercy.ios.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sidhe.memra.com Xref: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au comp.os.linux.development.system:22123 comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc:795 comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc:3449 comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc:3304 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:17990 comp.os.linux.advocacy:46830 In article <317C7EDF.144DC965@gramercy.ios.com>, Bryan Seigneur <freds@gramercy.ios.com> wrote: >Michael Dillon wrote: >> Personally, I think we've got to have a good spreadsheet and word processor >> PORTABLE FILE FORMAT that several people can write spreadsheet and WP >> programs for. In the beginning there was UNIX and plain ASCII stream >> files. This was good. Then there was nroff/troff and it was still pretty >> good. But then all hell broke loose and every app comes with mutually >> incomprehensible file formats that are all so utterly mediocre that they >> change from one release to the next. We need a little bit of up-front >> design to come up with something that will work for a long time but is >> more rigorously designed than HTML and is not so close to the metal as >> Postscript. >I've been reading this nauseating thread for a while and it seems like >many people who are bitching about apps, et al, haven't done an exorbitant >amount of research before speaking. Don't we have common dtp formats? >Yes. What's PostScript? What's LaTex? Lyx is a sortof WYSIWYG editor >that puts out LaTex. That's the problem, Lyx is only sort of WYSIWYg and it only outputs LaTeX which means you have to go through a horrendous procedure to get printed output. I know, I've tried it. And I know of no graphical editor that can read in an arbitrary Postscript file and let you modify it. LaTeX is too high level with too many layers and Postscript is too close to the metal. >I wasn't aware that a lot of what's been mentioned in this thread was a >problem. Do some searching and stop spreading FUD. Even in the MS world, >you aren't going to get the best product unless you search/shop! I have been doing "word processing" on computers since 1974 using qed (like ed only more commands and multiple buffers) and roff (like nroff) on GCOS/TSS systems including real typesetting using proff (special version of roff to drive a Photon typesetter). I have used more different editors and WP tools than most people including MS-Word starting with the DOS version 1.0. I've been searching but I haven't found because the industry became enamoured with bloatware and marketing hype rather than real user functionality. >I'm sorry to discourage people so enthusiastic about Linux, but even, >as I said above, in the MS world, you have to do some research before >you take massive action. Look around (thru the net) and you may be >surprised at how things don't look as dreary as you think. That's why I'm trying to encourage everybody to get together, form a team, hash out a collaborative design for an applications environment and an open extensible portable document format and then code a prototype. Instead of having one person do all the research we can benefit from the research that everyone has already done and then take some action. -- Michael Dillon Voice: +1-604-546-8022 Memra Software Inc. Fax: +1-604-546-3049 http://www.memra.com E-mail: michael@memra.com