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Xref: sserve comp.org.eff.talk:9516 misc.int-property:601 comp.unix.bsd:6733 Path: sserve!manuel.anu.edu.au!munnari.oz.au!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!ucbvax!virtualnews.nyu.edu!brnstnd From: brnstnd@nyu.edu (D. J. Bernstein) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,misc.int-property,alt.suit.att-bsdi,comp.unix.bsd Subject: Re: Patents: What they are. What they aren't. Other factors. Message-ID: <20236.Oct1800.23.1592@virtualnews.nyu.edu> Date: 18 Oct 92 00:23:15 GMT References: <1992Oct6.071314.16966@netcom.com> <11738.Oct1103.23.3892@virtualnews.nyu.edu> <1992Oct11.043358.5543@netcom.com> Organization: IR Lines: 75 In article <1992Oct11.043358.5543@netcom.com> mcgregor@netcom.com (Scott Mcgregor) writes: > I too have many many arguments. Entirely devoid of examples. You assert that the patent system has helped startup companies---but you refuse to point out examples. If indeed there were a significant number of examples, then the LPF would have no hope of changing the law. But there aren't. > It is my opinion that the harms that > the LPF claims are not at all clearly harmful to society even if they > have harmed individuals. The compression patents have harmed *everyone* who uses data compression programs. It's not as if society is deriving some benefit from those patents at the expense of a few individuals. Given that (at least) three independent researchers came upon AP coding within a couple of years of each other, and that two of the researchers published their work with no patent protection, how can you possibly claim that the patent has helped society? Yes, I'm asking you to address this example. I'm sick of your continual handwaving. During the period that AP coding represented the forefront of compression research, the AP patent *harmed* society as a whole, as well as every individual except the patent holder. The only way for you to dispute this is to point out a *specific* benefit of the patent. > > You are unable to exhibit a single beneficial software patent. > I've attempted to give plausable examples. Oh? Please be specific about the examples. Give patent numbers, point to the people or groups of people who have benefitted from those patents, and identify the benefits. This is exactly what the LPF does, except that ``benefits'' is replaced by ``harms.'' > Nor has he "admitted" that software patents can do > some good, probably because he isn't convinced by my > counter-arguments. I see no evidence that they do any good. I'm not claiming that they can't possibly do any good. (Nor is the LPF.) It's just that I see N examples where they have hurt everyone but the patent holder, and zero examples where they have helped. > >The effects of software patents are the combined effects of each > >individual software patent. How can you believe that software patents > >might possibly be good if you can't come up with any examples where > >they've helped? How do you expect to convince anyone else? > I've given the examples that I think may suggest how they help > (primarily in the raising of capital, and in the resulting mass > availability). Those aren't *examples*. Name *people* or *companies* or other groups that have benefitted from *specific* software patents. Let me put it this way: If you were running for president on the platform of preserving software patents, who would your constituency be? What *people*? What *groups*? You make the general assertion that patents may help raise capital. Why do you believe this? Is it because you're spouting pro-patent rhetoric, or because you actually know an *example* where a *specific* software patent *did* raise capital? > and ask whether there might not be reasonable positions that might > reach different conclusions. In the absence of factual examples supporting other positions? No. > >Can you come up with any example of the LZW > >algorithm _per se_ which does not infringe upon the claim below? > Sure, one that isn't used for data compression and data decompression. Once again, Scott, you haven't given an *example*. ---Dan