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Path: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.rmit.EDU.AU!news.unimelb.EDU.AU!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!paladin.american.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!cc.gatech.edu!cc.gatech.edu!byron From: byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc,comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Historic Opportunity facing Free Unix (was Re: The Lai/Baker paper, benchmarks, and the world of free UNIX) Date: 3 May 1996 13:26:35 GMT Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology - College of Computing Lines: 131 Message-ID: <4md1ib$44@solaria.cc.gatech.edu> References: <4ki055$60l@Radon.Stanford.EDU> <318851BF.4E8724A7@gramercy.ios.com> <4mb38b$680@solaria.cc.gatech.edu> <3189C111.34823E07@gramercy.ios.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gemini.cc.gatech.edu NNTP-Posting-User: byron Xref: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au comp.os.linux.development.system:22883 comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc:908 comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc:3632 comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc:3475 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:18603 comp.os.linux.advocacy:47827 In article <3189C111.34823E07@gramercy.ios.com>, Bryan Seigneur <freds@gramercy.ios.com> wrote: -Byron A Jeff wrote: -> In article <318851BF.4E8724A7@gramercy.ios.com>, -> Bryan Seigneur <freds@gramercy.ios.com> wrote: -> >I posit that this whole thing is silly because the Word format changes -> >every two days anyway and is proprietary. I don't see any free WProc -> >project incorporating the ability to read and write the latest Word -> >files. Free projects never support proprietary formats, it doesn't -> >happen, it shouldn't. Concentrating on the issue would suck valuable -> >resources. Something that could read and write to all the free -> >formats would be more useful than something whose features are -> >limited because the hacking-team is busy trying to figure out -> >MS's latest changes to the Word format. -> -> Any free Wordprocess that doesn't can't help Free Unixes make a move in -> the desktop market. - -That's a very assuming statement. -I don't think such a feature is vital. -Linux has gotten to where it is today, and it has NEVER, EVER, had to use -any standards that are not completely free. No free project that I know -of has done anything like that. This is so not because of any cultural -reason, but because it is the path of least resistance not to use any -proprietary standards. If you feel like working on such a project, fine, -but, again, Linux has gotten pretty far without doing any such -thing. Um. I don't think that either netbios or Novell are free standards. Yet there is support for both under Linux. - -> I believe I've wrrten three times before that the intent isn't that chase -> Microsoft's tail. The intent is to support the existing mountain of documents. -> Do Word 6. And word 6 only. do it before microsoft comes out with a -> competeing format. -> Infact don't even write word 6 documents. Write RTF or whatever other format -> you want. But you have to read Word 6 docs. -> If you don't you're not competing. That's the only reasonable criteria. -> -> >If one needs to access old docs, one should textify or rtf-ify or -> >html-ify or WP6-ify the docs from within Word. We're just slaves -> >to MS if we continue to promote their piece of crap format as a -> >standard. I just want a stinking WYSIWYG WProc. -> -> Pray tell: How do you do that conversion without booting up Windows? To use -> word 6 to do the conversion is self defeating. I don't have Windows nor -> Word 6 but I get quite a few Word 6 attachments. What do I do then? - -I know it might seem rude, but ask for a resend in a format you can use. -cIt's rude of the sender to send you a document you might be unable -to read unless you spend a nice amount of money. I'm sure no one will -think twice if you ask for a resend. OR, Ask MS for a Word reader -(like the one they have for Win) under Linux (ROTFL). That's exactly what we need. Of course Microsoft won't provide it. See asking for a resend makes the statement "My machine can't do what several hundred million machines can." Not a good statement if the objective is to get others to give your setup a once over. -> But to anyone that is in a microsoft environment they are worse that useless -> because the hundreds and thouseand of docs they already have cannot be -> used on any of them. And if they have to use word to convert them, then why -> should they bother to switch to a Free Unix (which is the real objective). - -For all the reasons someone would switch to a free Unix even if it weren't -able to convert Word6 docs. Let me take another stab at this. Consider: In a fateful decision, Linus Torvolds instead of obtaining a IBM 386 compatible, gets a top of the line Amiga (Not a bad machine mind you). Makes the same decision that a better Minix for the Amiga would be a good thing. Works out a kernel and publishes it on the Net. Question: Would Linux be anywhere as big is it is today? I think the answer is obvious and for the same reason I'm pushing this WP format converter: it doesn't support the de-facto standard. - -> >Standard doc formats are a GOOD thing. Part of the lure of free -> >software is to get away from all these formats that are hostile to -> >one another and that change every ten seconds. There is no reason -> >for MS to continually change their format continually except to !@#$ -> >the competition (and the customer), if we support MS, we will -> >continue to be !@#$ed, as we are not only the customer, but the -> >also competition. -> -> I agree that standard doc formats are a good thing. I also know that -> there are several billion existing documents in the old crappy format. - ^^^^^^^ :^O Why is that funny? Considering that there are over 100 million Windows installations and a siginicant portion of them have Word (or Wordpad) that several billion Word based documents exist around the world. -> Now I don't believe that we should perpetuate the next crappy format but -> we have to deal with the legacy that's already in the current crappy format. -> -> >My point is that to read and write the latest Word docs is going to be -> >a ROYAL PITA, because it's exactly what MS doesn't want us to be able -> >to do. It's masochistic! It would be a PITA, and then you would -> >have to do it all over again in 6 months when MS released the next -> >version! It's a job for a commercial endeavour, not a free hacking -> >project. We're trying to fun, too, after all! That's why it's not -> >gonna happen. It's masochistic and it runs contrary to free -> >software. So let's get on, we need another angle. -> -> Not the latests. Just Word 6. That's all. Come up with a standard -> WP format, a converter for Word 6 into that format, and a WP that runs -> both on free Unix and Microsoft platforms. Then promote the hell out of it -> before there are a billion more document in the next crappy format. -> Think about it. - -Okay, but you may have to do it yourself. Such thing is unheard of -in free Unix land. I often say, as much as Linux is an implementation -of Unix, then Unix is a completely free standard. Given history, I -don't see it happening. -Supposing we get Word6 legibility. Some people are going to stay with -the Word game, and generate megs of docs with Word 7 or 8 or whatever. -What do we do then? Anyway, if WP6 has a Word6 converter, this -conversation is moot. It doesn't and it wouldn't be moot in any case. There's no point in switching if you have to spend several hundred bucks to do it. BAJ -- Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of... Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel - And Using Linux! Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332 Internet: byron@cc.gatech.edu