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Path: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!qns3.qns.net!imci4!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!neteng!lm From: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com (Larry McVoy) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc Subject: Re: TCP latency Followup-To: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc Date: 13 Jul 1996 19:03:21 GMT Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc., Mountain View, CA Lines: 75 Message-ID: <4s8rtp$jsh@fido.asd.sgi.com> References: <4paedl$4bm@engnews2.eng.sun.com> <4pf7f9$bsf@white.twinsun.com> <4rql4p$39f@innocence.interface-business.de> <4rrimn$dro@fido.asd.sgi.com> <31E16DB5.41C67EA6@dyson.iquest.net> <4rtvpf$7e5@fido.asd.sgi.com> <31E73BCA.41C67EA6@FreeBSD.org> <4s7jsd$blf@fido.asd.sgi.com> <31E7B8A5.41C67EA6@dyson.iquest.net> Reply-To: lm@slovax.engr.sgi.com NNTP-Posting-Host: neteng.engr.sgi.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au comp.os.linux.networking:45094 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:23481 John S. Dyson (toor@dyson.iquest.net) wrote: : Firstly, we have shown that you have made biased : conclusions from results. What conclusions? And how were they biased? I went through the numbers again last night and I don't really see how you can call 'em biased. The one place that I screwed up is the Linux a.out shared libs versus the FreeBSD SunOS style libs. And that's not a screwup, that's what was there. Cray doesn't have shared libs - does that mean I can't report Unicos numbers? I don't think so. : Secondly, you are downplaying the efforts : of others. I really don't think that you are qualified to present : ANY kind of benchmark results with ANY sort of conclusions because : of your obvious disdain and bias. In fact, I would be embarrassed : to present anything in public if I was you. Apparently, I'm overcoming that embarrassment just fine. :-) Equally apparently, the Usenix association seemed to have the opposite idea, given that lmbench got best of conference. And after the fact, it seems like the interest in the benchmark suite has grown, not waned, as would be expected if it was biased. I think you are getting confused a little. The *benchmark* is not at all biased. The numbers are the numbers. I am certainly biased in that I prefer to work with Linus & Co, simply because I never get into this sort of waste of time. But my bias is not at all present in the benchmark, and I resent the implication, if that's what you are saying. If you're saying I'd rather work on Linux than *BSD, you're right. If you're saying that I'd cook the numbers to make Linux look better than BSD, you're slandering me and I'll bet that's not what you want to do. : Over and over, I have said that your benchmark suite is useful, but : your credibility on interpreting results is nearly ZERO. Well, I guess that's your opinion. It's not widely shared outside of the sour grapes department. : Notice how important I was when I was asked to help on Linux? and now : you try to put me and my efforts down? John, you're obviously a smart guy. When I approached you about working on Linux, it was more for your own benefit than for Linux'. It was obvious to me then (as it is now) that the Linux effort was far more focussed on cool technology than on people's personalities. My fear for you, which is obviously realized, was that you would get tangled up in silly arguments about BSD vs the world instead of having a pleasant time working with pleasant people working on widely used technology. "A mind is a terrible thing to waste." I felt then, and feel now, that working on *BSD is basically a waste of time. It was a compliment to you that I was interested enough to try and get you to see things from a different point of view. I'm sure you don't take it that way, but that's your problem, not mine. My point of view on this extends to the other smart & productive people working on the various BSD fractions. I feel that it is self defeating to have BSDI, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and 386BSD out there. Isn't it obvious at this point that Linux is doing a much better job of keeping the crowd of people focussed on the technology instead of the personalities? Is it really worthwhile to have these arguments? Wouldn't it be better if we were all working on the same thing, making one OS the best? Instead of arguing that your variant is better than their variant? When are you going to realize that my bias towards Linux is because of the fact that Linux is constantly drawing more people towards itself, while *BSD is constantly driving people away? The cool part about Linux is that there are no arguments like this. This sort of time waster is a BSD idiosyncrasy, one that is a major bummer. -- --- Larry McVoy lm@sgi.com http://reality.sgi.com/lm (415) 933-1804