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#! rnews 3158 bsd Path: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au!newshost.carno.net.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!uunet!in3.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!sumner+ From: Gerry S Hayes <sumner@CMU.EDU> Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc,comp.unix.bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc Subject: Re: Linux vs BSD Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 16:52:18 -0500 Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 46 Distribution: comp Message-ID: <0mzDKG200YUf0OAHo0@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <32DFFEAB.7704@usa.net> <5d299q$i6r@josie.abo.fi> <5d80q2$8cn@cynic.portal.ca> <0myX9U200YUf09B6Y0@andrew.cmu.edu> <5dg79o$fsi@cynic.portal.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <5dg79o$fsi@cynic.portal.ca> Xref: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc:5969 comp.unix.bsd.misc:2455 comp.os.linux.misc:157712 cjs@cynic.portal.ca (Curt Sampson) writes: > In article <0myX9U200YUf09B6Y0@andrew.cmu.edu>, > Gerry S Hayes <sumner@CMU.EDU> wrote: > > >> So how many people do you know running just the Linux kernel, > >> without any of those GNU utilities or shells? > > > >The same number as those I know who run Win95 without Microsoft Word > >(Or Minesweeper, for that matter). None. So what? ... The GNU utilities > >are some of the most useful applications for Linux.... > > Windows runs quite nicely without minesweeper. I'd like you to show > me just what you do with a GNU/Linux system that doesn't have init, > sh, ls, or any of those other `useful applications.' > I don't do anything on a machine without applications. Show me just what you do on Windows without any applications -- let it sit there? You at least need an app like program manager, a shell, or the explorer/file manager to do something. Who cares, though? As I said in my post (you conveniently trimmed this part out), the OS can't do any end-user tasks on its own. It provides an abstraction from the hardware and allocates the hardware resources to the user programs. So, no, you can't do shit without some apps on your machine. A lot of people can't do anything on a Windows box that doesn't have Word. Unix hackers need sh and cat. That doesn't make those part of the OS. RMS wants to redefine "OS" to include some tools he finds useful. For what it's worth, there are users on my system who wouldn't notice if I replaced all of the GNU utils. They run X exclusively, using xfm to do the basic file manipulation that is all they know how to do. They also use Netscape and a select few other programs. /sbin/init varies from system to system; some use SysVinit, some use simpleinit, some use other init programs. Many of these are not part of the GNU system and were developed by the Linux community. Yes, a lot of us use the GNU utilities and have great respect for their contributions; at login, my system gives thanks to the GNU project (libc, gcc, many useful utils), the XFree project (X11R6.1, extensions), and others. The OS, though, is still Linux. Cordially, Sumner -- Respond by post or email, but please don't CC: postings to me; my mailbox is already quite full.