*BSD News Article 98957


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From: engel@numerik.math.uni-siegen.de (Michael Engel)
Subject: Re: decstation 5000/133: linux/MIPS, OpenBSD/pmax or NetBSD/pmax
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Jonathan Stone (jonathan@DSG.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: In article <33babc1b.0@rainbow.hrz.uni-siegen.de>, engel@numerik.math.uni-siegen.de (Michael Engel) writes:
:  
: > Heavens, I didn't want to start that old Net vs. OpenBSD dispute again ! :-)

: But Comparisons of the two are a good way to do that.
: If the comparison is based on out-of-date facts, it's almost certain :).

Ok, Ok, I won't do it again :)

[...]
: But why would you even bother with a Linux port, if you can run MIPS
: linux binaries on NetBSD in emulation mode??

Well, maybe because it's simply fun --- most of the time, at least :-)
I certainly don't feel the need to port Linux because the world needs another
Linux port - I simply get to learn s.th. more about MIPS CPUs, low-level 
programming etc. This is especially nice if you know that the Computer 
Engineering Dept. here at Siegen Univ. is going to develop a 32-bit MIPS-like 
RISC CPU that is to be implemented on a Xilinx FPGA ...

Now, why DECstations and not SGI Indigos or MIPS R3300 or ... Well, we just 
happen to have a nice collection of DECstations here and also have some
hardware documentation for these (the docs from gatekeeper), so this seemed
a natural choice. Hmmm, I now have a R3000 Indigo, too :-) ...

As I happen to collect old hardware, I feel it really is a shame to see
older workstations simply being thrown away just because they're old or 
there's no operating system support for these beasts anymore. Porting an
operating system is also a chance to get more people interested in these
old machines - this may be the same people who run Linux or FreeBSD/NetBSD/
OpenBSD (in alphabetical order, no preference for any BSD indicated ;-))
on their PC at home. If they can get a DECstation with Ultrix or a VAX
running VMS or an old piece of hardware with no OS installation media at all, 
they will probably not be interested. If they hear it will run
the operating system they know and love :), they will probably save this
machine. Lots of the platforms that are supported by Linux or Net/OpenBSD
are way obsolete by now ... but working with these can still be fun. We have
a HP9000/320 here running NetBSD. It's not fast, but it's one of our nicest
X-terminals ...

: > And the lots of bugs in the different PROM revisions don't make life easier.
: >
: > I have two otherwise identical DS2100 here, one with PROM rev. 7.0, the
: > other with 7.01. The one with 7.0 is unable to boot kernels of more than
: > 1 MB in size via tftp, the 7.01 PROM works well ...

: I know how that feels. the 5000/120 I upgraded to a 5000/150 won't
: tftpboot NetBSD kernels at all.

Ooooh ... the 5000/150 is the R4000 machine, right ?

: But in your case, you could always pull the PROMs out and copy from
: the 7.01 PROM to the other.  

Yes, I know. I'll just have to find s.o. with an EPROMer that can burn megabit
(27010) EPROMs ... 

: I don't know how DEC would view that.
: Would they lose any revenue from allowing that? 

Probably not. They will probably not even manage to find a set of DS2100
firmware EPROMs, so even if they wanted to earn some money ... :-)

: If not, it might happen when they officially abandon support for Ultrix.

I hope so. As they are already giving VMS away for private use and most of
the firmware for the newer systems is available on the net (and considering the
fact the DEC is supporting Linux and NetBSD  development !), I see no big 
problem in upgrading the PROMs one minor release number ...

: I'm rather puzzled why anyone would invest time in porting Linux to
: DECstations.  It's like comparing *BSD and Linux. Except in the case
: of DECstations, the momentum and user-base is relaly on the *BSD side,
: not Linux!

Well, as I wrote above, it's for the experience and because I enjoy it !
I know that the world doesn't need another free Unix port on DECstation
hardware, but it can't harm either :).

What probably attracted me to Linux is the fact that - from a normal user's
point of view - the development process is IMHO more transparent. I think
I know the pros and cons of that by now :-) ... well, for some people it
simply makes getting involved easier, maybe that's all.

Unfortunately, this will produce diehard Linux advocates. They just don't
know enough about the alternatives. Even worse, if such people write code,
this will absolutely be non-portable in many cases :-(. This is somehow
shocking, it reminds me of the attitude that lots of these Micro$oft 
advocates have.

I know some people who can't understand why I read "The Design and Impl. of
the 4.4 BSD Operating System" by McKusick et al. or why I have the complete
set of 4.4BSD Lite manuals here --- such documentation simply doesn't exist
for Linux ! Most of the innovative ideas for Unix came from BSD, and Linux
wouldn't be Linux without all the people that did lots of work for BSD.
I don't want to imply that Linux actually uses BSD code - this will only
be true for very few cases, I think - it's jsut that many Linux users don't 
realise this.

But I'm happy with Linux and most of the developers so far, so I see no 
need to switch :). 

[...]
: It sounds like a case of NIH to me. And if you want to do DECstation
: kernel hacking, you're welcome to hack on NetBSD :).

Thanks ! - well, you guys already did most of the interesting work, what's 
left ? [just joking ...] ;-) ...

regards,
	Michael Engel	(engel@unix-ag.uni-siegen.de)