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From: graichen@farm.my.domain (Thomas Graichen)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.misc,comp.unix.ultrix
Subject: Re: decstation 5000/133: linux/MIPS, OpenBSD/pmax or NetBSD/pmax
Followup-To: comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.misc,comp.unix.ultrix
Date: 3 Jul 1997 09:52:42 GMT
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Jonathan Stone (jonathan@DSG.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: In article <33babc1b.0@rainbow.hrz.uni-siegen.de>,
: engel@numerik.math.uni-siegen.de (Michael Engel) writes:
:
: > Heavens, I didn't want to start that old Net vs.
: > OpenBSD dispute again ! :-)
: But Comparisons of the two are a good way to do that.
: If the comparison is based on out-of-date facts, it's almost certain :).
but why ? - i really hope that we can make something productive out of
those comparisions ... i am thomas - the one "doing" OpenBSD/pmax (at
least the most part of it) and i am very interested in a good relation
between the two *BSD's at least for the port i am a bit working on (i
do it because it is fun for me and i think the same holds for jonathan
and the other working on NetBSD/pmax - so i don't like to waste my time
fighting against the other camp - which seems to be the same in the
other direction too - which i think is a real good situation - i more
like to see it as a competive concurence from which both sides win - at
least i hope that this is possible)
first let's make the current state of both OpenBSD/pmax and NetBSD/pmax
clear: first - nearly all (if not really all) pmax dependent hardware
work is done in NetBSD - currently OpenBSD/pmax is in the way of device
drivers and so in no way better than NetBSD/pmax - it may even be from
time to time a bit behind NetBSD/pmax - because i'm only merging NetBSD
changes from time to time into OpenBSD (aside from important bugfixes i
try to get in then i see them) - so if you have problems with your hard-
ware not running properly with NetBSD there is no real chance that it
will do with OpenBSD - also if you are happy with NetBSD on your pmax
i really don't wan't to get you away from it - and if you want to install
a new machine i would suggest the usual thing i would suggest if people
ask: use the one for which you have someone near you who can help you -
else try one or both and decide then - the difference between them is not
as big as it is for instance relative to linux - so you can't really be
wrong by choosing either - i personally would recommend OpenBSD (because
it's fine to see the stuff i put a lot of my sparetime into used by
someone else) and jonathan (i use him here for representing all the
others working on NetBSD/pmax) recommends NetBSD which is absolutely
clear to me - and i have no problems with that because also NetBSD/pmax
is a very good and stable system and i think he also likes it to see
many people using it - and i also can understand him if don't like to
hear here people recommending OpenBSD in favour to NetBSD while most of
the pmax specific part of OpenBSD/pmax comes from him only because the
installation is easier - i think the next release of NetBSD/pmax will
have something similar (maybe you'll have a look at the way i did it
for OpenBSD/pmax - not perfect - but it seems to work fine so far) and
will thus shurely be "as easy" :-) to install ...
ok - it's got a bit long - but i really want to make this clear - i have
nothing against NetBSD - i would'nt recommend anyone happy with it to
switch - i really like some kind of coopearation (at least for this port)
currently i'm taking a lot of NetBSD/pmax (i'll also express my thanks for
all the people having done all that good work here) and try to give also
some feedback (not much for now :-)
: But why would you even bother with a Linux port, if you can run MIPS
: linux binaries on NetBSD in emulation mode??
why not - why trying to port *BSD to the powermacs if there is linux for
the powermac ? - because they want to have linux also running on that
machines (pmax i mean here) - why not ? - there are enough pmaxes around
the world so that all currently 3 can coexist happyly (NetBSD, linux and
OpenBSD) :-)
: > : Installation of either NetBSD and OpenBSD is very similar. In fact,
: > : significant portions of the OpenBSD installation guide are copied
: > : verbatim from the NetBSD 1.2 release documentation, complete with the
: > : typos and spelling errors ;).
: >
: > I was also amused when I realised that ;-) ...
but i think you know the situation if time is short - i reraed them some
times but not very good it seems :-) ... but this is also the same thing
i have no problems to take existing stuff and reuse it than reinventing
the wheel only to have done my own thing - maybe by simply taking the
NetBSD docs and converting them i have found some time to work on the
install scripts which maybe save you some time by looking at them and
taking some ideas from then for the install procedure of the next
NetBSD/pmax release - this is the way i prefer to see the *BSD's working
at least a bit together (maybe it's an illusion - but i don't give up :-)
: I'm confused. Exactly *what* about the OpenBSD installation is easier
: than NetBSD? NetBSD now has a diskimage install, and you could almost
: follow those portions of the OpenBSD notes that weren't just
: plagiarized from my NetBSD text. And the OpenBSD/pmax Web page points
: you at the NetBSD/pmax Web page if you run into installation problems.
i have taken the sparc install stuff and reworked it for the pmax and
made it possible to simply dump the diskimage (it's called simpleroot
there) onto the disk and install with it leaving it the rootfilesystem
afterwards - so you should only need one disk - thats all - not much -
not perfect but at least a start ...
: I'm rather puzzled why anyone would invest time in porting Linux to
: DECstations. It's like comparing *BSD and Linux. Except in the case
: of DECstations, the momentum and user-base is relaly on the *BSD side,
: not Linux!
: Most of the DECstation userbase is used to Ultrix, which is a BSD
: system. The existing free-Unix-on-DEcstation user base is used to
: either NetBSD or OpenBSD. The expertise on how to install free-Unix,
: on device-drivers, and on machine-specific code is all in the *BSD
: camps. I don't know if there's an already-existing set of precompiled
: binaries for Linux/MIPS. But if there is, and you want to run them,
: you should be able to run them under NetBSD's emulation mode.
: It sounds like a case of NIH to me. And if you want to do DECstation
: kernel hacking, you're welcome to hack on NetBSD :).
or on xxxxBSD :-) - ok - enough spoken here - i hope i could have made
something clear here (maybe this is wrong english :-) - i really hope
that there is a way to share all the pmaxes with all those free os'es
for them in a friendly way
t
p.s.: if you have any comments on this - please at least send a cc mail
of them to me too - because i'm very often reading news ...
--
thomas graichen - graichen@rzpd.de graichen@OpenBSD.org graichen@FreeBSD.org
perfection is reached, not when there is no longer anything to add, but when
there is no longer anything to take away antoine de saint-exupery